Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[AmateurAgitator]

How would you have applied this principle have applied in WW2?

I would be supportive of the international working class and oppose the international ruling class (who were basically pro-fascist) as I already stated, and there were people who took that position.

 

[Pickman's model]

Honorary, for life.

El presidente

 

[SpookyFrank]

It’s been suggested establishing a land route to Crimea would be one objective.

Probably said by people without access to google maps. There's already a road bridge from Crimea to mainland Russia.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I would be supportive of the international working class and oppose the international ruling class (who were basically pro-fascist) as I already stated, and there were people who took that position.

I'm still waiting for that revolutionary general strike which will usher in the libertarian socialist future.

 

[Dogsauce]

Probably said by people without access to google maps. There's already a road bridge from Crimea to mainland Russia.

That only opened last year (I think), hastily built as a gift from Putin for breaking away. If the war gets hot enough to involve more capable powers I imagine it’ll be in the soup fairly quickly.

 

[Pickman's model]

.

 

[Raheem]

Raheem spouts less Russian propoganda if that helps

I'm just better trained. Remember this when you find yourself buying roubles and you don't know why.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

I'm still waiting for that revolutionary general strike which will usher in the libertarian socialist future.

Doesn't mean you have to support any ruling class or it's nation-state or capitalist bloc.

 

[teqniq]

Fuck Report by Quentin Sommerville. Warning graphic content:

Spoiler: Kharkiv's frontline

 

[teqniq]

There also this report by Orla Guerin which is pretty upsetting:

Spoiler: Bucha near #Kyiv

 

[weltweit]

Orla Guerin is doing some brave journalism.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

In terms of the war itself I really don't know.

But somethings that they could be doing.

1 - shipping food and medical supplies to Ukraine instead of just weapons.

2 - proactive take refugees form Ukraine, organising transport form the border instead of leaving people to spend days making there own way then leave the stuck for not having signed some form along the way.

3 - This one is mainly Germany, but stop buying Russian Gas and oil and raise takes on the companies that are making record profits out this instead of passing the cost on to the consumers.

4 - Instead of making it harder for people to flee Russia make it easier.

5- If the Russian economy tanks so bad food becomes a problem offer to send food their as well.

Not Germany, but Dale Vince of Ecotricity made an interesting point about Russian gas in the context of sanctions/calls for boycotts. iirc, I think he said about five per cent of his company's gas supplies were from Russia and he'd looked into breaking the contract but in the end decided not to.

This was because cancelling the contract early would trigger penalty clauses and they'd have to pay the Russian gas company * more * money, not less, so as a means of punishing Russia/Russian companies, it would backfire, because punishing them by cancelling the gas contract would actually result in them being better off financially, not worse off.

Although he said when the contract ended they wouldn't renew/sign up for a new one with Russian suppliers.

So it's not always as simple and effective as you might think, to say boycott/cancel contracts.

 

[emanymton]

Not Germany, but Dale Vince of Ecotricity made an interesting point about Russian gas in the context of sanctions/calls for boycotts. iirc, I think he said about five per cent of his company's gas supplies were from Russia and he'd looked into breaking the contract but in the end decided not to.

This was because cancelling the contract early would trigger penalty clauses and they'd have to pay the Russian gas company * more * money, not less, so as a means of punishing Russia/Russian companies, it would backfire, because punishing them by cancelling the gas contract would actually result in them being better off financially, not worse off.

Although he said when the contract ended they wouldn't renew/sign up for a new one with Russian suppliers.

So it's not always as simple and effective as you might think, to say boycott/cancel contracts.

Ingesting but who would enforce those contracts outside Russia? Pretty sure if a government earned to void a contract with a Russian company they could do it without paying a penalty at the moment.

 

[Mr Moose]

Doesn't mean you have to support any ruling class or it's nation-state or capitalist bloc.

How could you have not supported the UK during WW2?

I’m going to take a flyer and say that would be a tough sell to the UK working class.

 

[Pickman's model]

How could you have not supported the UK during WW2?

I’m going to take a flyer and say that would be a tough sell to the UK working class.

Yes, I can readily picture you toasting the king-emperor

 

[Mr Moose]

Orla Guerin is doing some brave journalism.

She’s not wired in the same way as most of us. Early on she described how she ‘rushed’ into Ukraine and she and crew did appear to be zooming their way along the road into the conflict.

I’m not sure it’s the best impulse, but she tells peoples’ stories that wouldn’t get told. Seems compelled to.

 

[Mr Moose]

Yes, I can readily picture you toasting the king-emperor

Hmmn. People support their countries without constantly having their royals in mind.

What would your position have been on a UK win in that scrap?

 

[existentialist]

She’s not wired in the same way as most of us. Early on she described how she ‘rushed’ into Ukraine and she and crew did appear to be zooming their way along the road into the conflict.

I’m not sure it’s the best impulse, but she tells peoples’ stories that wouldn’t get told. Seems compelled to.

One in a long line of remarkably brave women who do this job - Kate Adie, Janine di Giovanni (Times), Marie Colvin (RIP)... I was surprised to learn that the tradition of incredibly brave female war reporters goes right back to 1915.

 

[Pickman's model]

Hmmn. People support their countries without constantly having their royals in mind.

What would your position have been on a UK win in that scrap?

What? Have you not noticed that the UK has never won a major war on its tod? You're taking the fucking piss if you think otherwise. But this shit has no place on this important thread.

 

[dilute micro]

 

[Mr Moose]

What? Have you not noticed that the UK has never won a major war on its tod? You're taking the fucking piss if you think otherwise. But this shit has no place on this important thread.

Wtf are you talking about? I’m exploring what someone else wrote about the positions people take when looking upon conflicts from the sidelines. No need to play the arsey prefect.

 

[existentialist]

Wtf are you talking about? I’m exploring what someone else wrote about the positions people take when looking upon conflicts from the sidelines. No need to play the arsey prefect.

He is, TBF, very good at it

 

[Aladdin]

Not Germany, but Dale Vince of Ecotricity made an interesting point about Russian gas in the context of sanctions/calls for boycotts. iirc, I think he said about five per cent of his company's gas supplies were from Russia and he'd looked into breaking the contract but in the end decided not to.

This was because cancelling the contract early would trigger penalty clauses and they'd have to pay the Russian gas company * more * money, not less, so as a means of punishing Russia/Russian companies, it would backfire, because punishing them by cancelling the gas contract would actually result in them being better off financially, not worse off.

Although he said when the contract ended they wouldn't renew/sign up for a new one with Russian suppliers.

So it's not always as simple and effective as you might think, to say boycott/cancel contracts.

Could have broken the contract and told them to fuck off...and not paid.

 

[Pickman's model]

Wtf are you talking about? I’m exploring what someone else wrote about the positions people take when looking upon conflicts from the sidelines. No need to play the arsey prefect.

You're the arsey prefect here, telling people how they should have supported the UK in 39-45. You're the one talking about a UK victory when the UK fought as one of a coalition (and of course an imperial power with her colonies' armies). You're not exploring this very well either.

 

[Serge Forward]

I'm still waiting for that revolutionary general strike which will usher in the libertarian socialist future.

Just because it's not happening doesn't mean you have to join the enemy.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Have you not noticed that the UK has never won a major war on its tod?

Historically we are very good at picking mates associates who are fucking nails and poking them in the right way to get involved though. That in itself is a valuable talent.

 

[Mr Moose]

You're the arsey prefect here, telling people how they should have supported the UK in 39-45. You're the one talking about a UK victory when the UK fought as one of a coalition (and of course an imperial power with her colonies' armies). You're not exploring this very well either.

I don’t think people need telling which side to have supported in WW2. Most have made their minds up easily enough. There is a suggestion here that everyone must take thoroughly neutral positions on the states involved. I’m simply saying that’s fine in theory but not always possible in practice. Frankly, your supercilious asides in this thread are the bits folk may wish to skip.

 

[Pickman's model]

Historically we are very good at picking mates associates who are fucking nails and poking them in the right way to get involved though. That in itself is a valuable talent.

Historically that's been done by subsidising allies and mobilising men and money. But I'm not persuaded the UK under Johnson can do what was done under Chamberlain and Churchill

 

[Serge Forward]

How could you have not supported the UK during WW2?

I’m going to take a flyer and say that would be a tough sell to the UK working class.

By jingo, you talk some shite. Next you'll be saying we should read the Sun, bin off unions and slag off immigrants, because otherwise, it'd be a tough sell to the UK working class.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Just because it's not happening doesn't mean you have to join the enemy.

My enemy's enemy may not be my friend, but he may not be my enemy, at least for the time being. There may well be times when you have to make a choice between limited possibilities. It's sometimes a good idea to limit the amount of jargon in your thought processes, as well.