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Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

was watching a review of it on youtube and it was comparied to a american made movie that came out a year eariler the day after

may watch threads as its avalable on the internet archive for free but maybe the bleak ending has a better effect

guess the idea that no body wins in a nuke fight is a better message
like watching the road
Comparing "the day after" to "threads" is like comparing "spongebob squarepants" to "squid game". The day after is (as a cautionary tale of nuclear armageddon) hopelessly optimistic by comparison. Every review of threads usually ends in a variation on the theme of "it will change you".
 
So within a week she has ratcheted up nuclear tensions with Russia and then encouraged thousands of Brits to go and do something which turns out to be illegal?

I can see why she’s spoken of as one of the front runners to replace Boris. :facepalm:
To be fair you could replace Boris with the last remaining Chuckle Brother and he'd do a better job than him.
 
A more nuanced and realistic view.

'The triumph of liberalism was a mirage.'
'Putin is the face of a world the contemporary Western mind does not comprehend.'

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Whats striking is how few people in Russia - seemingly at very high levels - believed it was actually going to come to a full on invasion. This would chime with what looks like very poor planning and preparedness by the military. 11 days and their ability to break out in the north and encircle kiev could be decreasing every day as Ukrainian capabilities grow - (time to build and organise defence, weapons and more troops coming in). That vast, fearsome armoured column is fast becoming a symbol of humiliating failure.
the Ukrainian tactic of targeting trucks rather than tanks could break the Russian army in the NE. I imagine Russian morale is plummeting - low on food , with poor shelter, snow, rain mud and making zero progress whilst steadily taking casualties - plus who knows how much anger at how they have been lied to.
Whats also striking is how world changing events are being shaped by the actions of people on the ground - the bravery of the Ukrainians doing the fighting, the unarmed citizens trying to block convoys or getting food and medicines where they are needed, the demonstrators in Russia facing down police beatings and prion sentences (and - who knows - the potentially mutinous Russian soldiers) .
 
A more nuanced and realistic view.

'The triumph of liberalism was a mirage.'
'Putin is the face of a world the contemporary Western mind does not comprehend.'

A horrible read, but I think the author is right.
 
A more nuanced and realistic view.

'The triumph of liberalism was a mirage.'
'Putin is the face of a world the contemporary Western mind does not comprehend.'
'The triumph of liberalism was a mirage'

Searing stuff. I've never heard such cogent analysis before.
 
A more nuanced and realistic view.

'The triumph of liberalism was a mirage.'
'Putin is the face of a world the contemporary Western mind does not comprehend.'

Paywall, could you post the contents? I'd be interested to read it.
 
Doubt that, a lot - the Turks can defend the Bosphorus with ease, even against a force vastly superior to the one the Russians have (in the Med and the Black Sea combined). It would also be an attack on a NATO state, and one of the two NATO states that Russia gets on best with and which hasn't taken part in sanctions against it at that.
A carrier sent there is most likely to send a message, same as with the strategic heavy bombers in Poland or wherever the other day. It would support NATO but it can also gather intelligence for the time being. With the carrier goes a battle group and 1 or 2 fast attack submarines. So the message it sends is a big one.
 
A more nuanced and realistic view.

'The triumph of liberalism was a mirage.'
'Putin is the face of a world the contemporary Western mind does not comprehend.'
Some decent points as usual but it does come over as Gray doing his "why recent events prove I was right" bit.
 
Paywall, could you post the contents? I'd be interested to read it.
Vladimir Putin’s second invasion of Ukraine in eight years is seen by many in the West as an act of madness, the last throw of an ageing and increasingly irrational dictator. Raining down destruction on Ukraine’s cities can only end in downfall for him and disaster for Russia. The effect has been to unite the West in a way unseen for decades. Putin’s aggression will backfire, leaving Russia a pariah state on the wrong side of history.


The West does seem to be acting in a much more coordinated fashion. Western countries are supplying ammunition and arms, anti-tank and anti-air weapons and medical aid to Ukraine. Leaders once sympathetic to Putin, such as Victor Orbán in Hungary, have aligned themselves against him. But on their side there is no clear strategy or realistic endgame in view. The assumption is that Putin will be toppled, but escalating sanctions could prove ineffective or self-defeating. The most coherent objective that can be detected in the West’s response – a reversion to the status quo before the invasion – is impossible. History has moved on.

However this war develops, it marks a breakdown in the international system comparable with the end of the first era of globalisation in 1914. It is telling that the abstention of China, a far more powerful autocracy, in the UN vote condemning the invasion has been hailed as a victory for the West. India and the United Arab Emirates also abstained. The liberal order is dead and buried.

[See also: The world is at financial war]

The adage that Russia is “Upper Volta with nukes”, which Joe Biden repeated in June 2021 when arriving in Geneva for talks with Putin, underestimated Russia’s capacity to sow chaos. As Putin has reminded us, it remains a fully operational nuclear state. But he has many other, less apocalyptic weapons at his disposal. As well as its grip on European energy supplies, Russia is the world’s largest wheat exporter and a key supplier of strategic metals. This gives it a formidable power to retaliate against sanctions. If Putin was to stop the flow of gas into Europe, the continent and the world would be plunged into recession and inflation would spiral out of control.

Isolating Russia means accelerating the break-up of world markets. Last weekend the EU, the US, the UK and other countries agreed to expel some Russian banks from Swift, the messaging system that enables cross-border transfers. The full details are not yet known, but it may be significant that the scheme imposed a selective cut-off. A complete financial embargo, if it could be enforced, would push Russia into using other regional systems, such as that guided by China. The West would be actively promoting a process of deglobalisation.

If Putin’s initial objective was to bring Ukraine back into a Russian sphere of influence, he must have expected to do so relatively quickly. A shock-and-awe blitzkrieg deploying air power and missile attacks on cities, with special forces targeting key facilities and people, would disable Volodymyr Zelensky’s government and allow regime change to be imposed in short order. But Putin’s timetable has not been met. Through its army, popular militias and civil society, Ukraine is resisting valiantly. If Kyiv continues to fight on, Putin may resort to bombing the city into submission, effectively destroying it, as Russian forces did the Chechen capital during the Battle of Grozny from late 1999 to early 2000. Even after such a disaster, Ukrainian partisans could wage a fierce guerrilla war for many years.

A protracted conflict would obviously be risky for Putin, but threatening it could give him a winning hand in his game of force and fear. The West’s worst nightmare – an unending Syrian-style bloodbath in the middle of Europe, with millions of refugees spilling out across the continent – may be his most potent weapon. We have already seen a similar tactic tried in Belarus earlier this year. Looming behind negotiations is the threat of a scorched earth strategy.

There are many who could not have imagined Putin launching a campaign of such brazen barbarity. They must have forgotten the murder of Alexander Litvinenko in London, the attempted murders and the death of a British civilian in Salisbury, the poisoning of Alexei Navalny and the methodical repression that has made Belarus into a Russian colony. They cannot have noticed the parallels between the Russian assault on Ukraine and the invasion of Georgia in 2008, which Putin presented as a peacekeeping operation designed to prevent ethnic cleansing in his proxy state of South Ossetia. They did not grasp that interspersing terror with deceptive diplomacy is Putin’s way of waging war.

[See also: Zelensky is a hero – but bravery alone won’t defeat the Russians]
 
2

A prolonged struggle in Ukraine would not necessarily work to the West’s advantage. Biden has handled the crisis reasonably well. Yet there can be no certainty regarding American policy after the presidential election in November 2024.

The Republicans are divided on whether – or more precisely, how – to continue Donald Trump’s style of politics. When he defends Putin, the influential Fox News host Tucker Carlson speaks for a large and growing section of the American right, who regard the Russian autocrat as an ally in the American culture wars. On 22 February Trump praised Putin’s recognition of the two Donbas pseudo-states as “genius” and described his invading troops as “the strongest peace force I’ve ever seen”. Many in both the main US parties regard Ukraine as a distraction from the challenge posed by China. The US is bound to Europe by Nato, which remains the cornerstone of Western defence. The alliance is strengthening its forces in Poland, the Baltics and elsewhere. But can future presidents be relied on to honour the US’s commitments? If not, Europe could be left to fend for itself.

Many will say this would be no bad thing: Europe has freeloaded on America’s security guarantee for too long. But building an autonomous European defence capacity will take time. France is a serious military power but lacks anything like the logistical, intelligence and high-tech warfare capabilities of the US and its allies. Emmanuel Macron’s project of a European army remains a chimera. Lulled into torpor by the belief that major wars between states belong in the history books, Europe has run down its capacity to engage in conventional warfare. (So, too, has the UK.) While Putin was systematically upgrading Russia’s military forces, Europe was disarming itself.

The fundamental question is whether European states have the will to defend themselves. Aside from Poland, the Baltic states, Scandinavia and the Netherlands, there is room for doubt. Some in the French political classes may have a personal interest in good relations with Russia. François Fillon, the former prime minister and one-time frontrunner in the 2017 presidential election, joined the board of the Russian petrochemical company Sibur in December 2021. In Germany Nord Stream 2 has been paused, not decommissioned. Chancellor Olaf Scholz has announced a raft of measures, including increased defence spending and building up energy reserves, that have rightly been described as a turning point in German foreign policy. Yet Germany is still reliant on Russian gas as a result of Angela Merkel’s policies. The ex-chancellor Gerhard Schröder heads the shareholders’ committee of Nord Stream AG. He is also chairman of the board of the Russian state oil company Rosneft, and in early February was nominated to serve on the board of Gazprom. He has issued statements deploring military conflict in Ukraine, but there is so far no sign of him renouncing these posts.

If Putin’s larger plan is to overturn the post-Cold War settlement in Europe, sections of its elites might not be too discomfited if he succeeds. Against this background, his ruthless gamble does not look so irrational. But could this war nevertheless be his undoing, as so many in the West want to believe?

Certainly, there are risks. Contrary to the stupefying cliché, he does not rule Russia with the authority of a tsar. His power is transactional and precarious. If the invasion stalls, a coup mounted by oligarchs fearful of a costly conflict must be a real possibility. (Ironically, isolating Russia from the world’s financial system could strengthen Putin’s hold over the oligarchs, since it would force them to keep their wealth in the country.) The scale of popular dissent is hard to judge. There have been demonstrations against the war in cities throughout Russia and thousands of protesters have been arrested. Many Russians, on the other hand, consider the West the enemy – a view that could become more widely held if sanctions impoverish the majority.

Putin’s war has torn up the view of history that guided the West for the past 30 years. When Tony Blair told Labour’s party conference in September 2005, “I hear people say we have to stop and debate globalisation. You might as well debate whether autumn should follow summer,” he encapsulated the ruling myth of the age. Across the world thousands of economists nodded sagely. Fervent internationalists cheered the dawn of a universal regime of human rights. But the millennial transformation Blair announced did not come to pass.

[See also: The Klitschko brothers face the fight of their lives]

In order to see the world clearly, we need to understand the fall of communism. The West misread the forces that overthrew the Soviet state: it was brought down not by intellectual dissent or economic inefficiency, which dogged the system from the start, but by nationalism, religion and working-class revolt. In Russia the trigger for the communist collapse was the failure of Mikhail Gorbachev’s Westernising reform programme. As Alexis de Tocqueville wrote in the 19th century, “the most dangerous time for a bad government is when it starts to reform itself”. Positioned ambivalently between Europe and Asia, Russia was never going to become a facsimile of the West.

The triumph of liberalism was a mirage. There were wars in the Gulf, the Balkans, the Caucasus and the Middle East. Many were wars of resources or religion – types of violent conflict that were supposed to be fading away. The war in Ukraine continues this pattern. The role of resources will become apparent as sanctions fail or rebound. The influence of religion will remain obscure or incredible for most in the West. Some have noted Putin citing Ivan Ilyin, a 19th-century émigré Orthodox theologian and supporter of the White armies in the Russian Civil War, as one of his favourite writers. Not many noticed when last August Tass reported that Putin’s Mephistophelian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, had denounced the West for backing Ukraine’s church, which in October 2018 split from its Russian counterpart after three centuries of accepting Moscow’s authority. While calling for peace, Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and all Russia has come out in support of Putin. Ukraine is being invaded, it seems, in order to reclaim Kyiv for Holy Russia. Western observers are baffled by the way Putin has invoked Russian spiritual values to justify the bloody conquest on which he seems bent. Some dismiss his profession of faith as a cynical ploy, others diagnose insanity. A few – of whom I am one – suspect his Orthodoxy could be genuine. But while he may hold the fate of Europe in his hands, it is a mistake to focus on him as the sum of all our fears.

Putin is the face of a world the contemporary Western mind does not comprehend. In this world, war remains a permanent part of human experience; lethal struggles over territory and resources can erupt at any time; human beings kill and die for the sake of mystical visions; and saving the victims of tyranny and aggression is often impossible. These are hard truths, to be sure. But the time for pretence and illusion has passed. The enervating dream of a global liberal order must be abandoned, and the reckless disarmament of the past decades reversed. Only then will we be prepared for whatever Putin’s war brings.
 
Doesn't really work. You just get pages of "You're ignoring this twat" followed by a reply to the twats message. It'd be more use if ignoring a twat hid their messages and all the idiots that reply to them.
Welcome to my world…
 
obviously didnt read it - it concludes the west needs to get tooled up and recognise that Russia isnt a liberal actor but a warring imperial state
Hope we're not getting to the stage where everything that isn't outright pro-war is dismissed as 'Putin Propaganda.'
 
A carrier sent there is most likely to send a message, same as with the strategic heavy bombers in Poland or wherever the other day. It would support NATO but it can also gather intelligence for the time being. With the carrier goes a battle group and 1 or 2 fast attack submarines. So the message it sends is a big one.

Yes, but who are we sending the message to? Putin has spent the last decade cozying up to most of the worlds autocrats, including Erdogan and MBS. He has good relations with them all and in this crisis they’ve all not gotten involved, at least in the way of joining sanctions.

Unless we are prepared to use our advantage (in military strength) I don’t see how the West “wins” this. Using it runs horrendous and unimaginable risks, which everyone would be right to question if it happened.

Personally I think we should be much more focused (here and in the EU) on improving our militaries, improving food production and energy supply / usage - with the aim being to remove (or at least reduce) our dependence on things that the Russia / China bloc controls.
 
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