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Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

Old Pa D'wards was telling me how we have hundreds of Challenger 2 tanks mothballed, as its cheaper than maintaining them.
Why don't we ship them to Poland, swiftly train a load of Ukrainian soldiers in Poland, let them crack on.
The Challenger 2 is one of the best tanks in the world- only one has been destroyed and that was by accident by another Challenger 2 and the hatches were open at the time.
We have apaches so don't really rely on tanks now anyway.
They could tear through the Russian fleet
 
spitfire said:
Flipping crikey, some SKY journalists had a very, very close call here. Scary as fuck. I know journos get a hard time, usually justified, but some of them are really sticking their necks on the line to get information out.

CW: they were under accurate fire, no deaths/serious injuries.

news.sky.com

Sky News team's harrowing account of their violent ambush in Ukraine this week

On Monday, near Kyiv, chief correspondent Stuart Ramsay and his team were attacked. Camera operator Richie Mockler took two rounds to his body armour, Stuart was wounded. Their experience illustrates the scale of the mayhem and violence as Russia's invasion enters a new and deadlier phase.
news.sky.com news.sky.com
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Fucking hell.
 
D'wards said:
Old Pa D'wards was telling me how we have hundreds of Challenger 2 tanks mothballed, as its cheaper than maintaining them.
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Did he say where in the world they are? Because we might need them for NATO duty.
D'wards said:
The Challenger 2 is one of the best tanks in the world- only one has been destroyed and that was by accident by another Challenger 2 and the hatches were open at the time.
Click to expand...
Are they immune to these shoulder launched anti tank weapons?
D'wards said:
We have apaches so don't really rely on tanks now anyway.
They could tear through the Russian fleet
Click to expand...
 
weltweit said:
Did he say where in the world they are? Because we might need them for NATO duty.

Are they immune to these shoulder launched anti tank weapons?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure but I know they are one of the best armoured tanks in the world.

Any tank experts in?
 
kebabking said:
I think the problem any peace deal is going to face is, who's is going to believe that Putin will be doing anything but rebuilding his force for the next attack?

The talk of compromise, of Putin gets this but doesn't get that, just ignores his behaviour towards Ukraine for the last 20 years - I think I count 4 separate treaties regarding Ukraine that Russia has broken - so why would anyone believe he'll stick to number 5?

The only reason you'd sign one would be breathing space...
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Wish people would stop making it about just Putin, as if there's no history of Russian antagonism to having hostile alliances on its borders. Here's some news: it's been going on for centuries and centuries.

Once the west had decided that, needlessly, Russia must be maneouvred into being an enemy again, it was inevitable that a leader like Putin would arise. But it could easily have been somebody else with the same outlook on the world.
 
D'wards said:
I'm not sure but I know they are one of the best armoured tanks in the world.

Any tank experts in?
Click to expand...
A little bit of reading around tells me that the Challenger 2 tanks are scheduled to be upgraded into Challenger 3 by a UK / German consortium, including changing the gun to a NATO standard smooth bore rather than the current rifled gun.

So if there are CH2 in mothballs it is probably for this project they are destined.
 
RD2003 said:
Wish people would stop making it about just Putin, as if there's no history of Russian antagonism to having hostile alliances on its borders. Here's some news: it's been going on for centuries and centuries.

Once the west had decided that, needlessly, Russia must be maneouvred into being an enemy again, it was inevitable that a leader like Putin would arise. But it could easily have been somebody else with the same outlook on the world.
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It's all the fault of everybody but the actual fucker who is ordering the bloodbath. You're a fucking pillock. So what if there have been other bastards in the past, Stalin, Peter the Great, Ivan the Terrible etc. Who cares? Putin chose to be a shite in Chechnya. nothing to do with the west.
 
Kevbad the Bad said:
It's all the fault of everybody but the actual fucker who is ordering the bloodbath. You're a fucking pillock. So what if there have been other bastards in the past, Stalin, Peter the Great, Ivan the Terrible etc. Who cares? Putin chose to be a shite in Chechnya. nothing to do with the west.
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Missing the point.
 
weltweit said:
A little bit of reading around tells me that the Challenger 2 tanks are scheduled to be upgraded into Challenger 3 by a UK / German consortium, including changing the gun to a NATO standard smooth bore rather than the current rifled gun.

So if there are CH2 in mothballs it is probably for this project they are destined.
Click to expand...
Sorry for Mail link but relevant article.
General says mothballing British Army's tanks is 'very dangerous' General says mothballing British Army's tanks is 'very dangerous' via https://dailym.ai/android
 
RD2003 said:
Once the west had decided that, needlessly, Russia must be maneouvred into being an enemy again, it was inevitable that a leader like Putin would arise. But it could easily have been somebody else with the same outlook on the world.
Click to expand...

When Putin first came to power he was our new best mate. Despite the war crimes he was already up to his elbows in.

Before Putin got in, Russia was on the bones of its arse and in no position to be much of a threat to anyone. Anyone with any kind of organised defence apparatus anyway. Russia was very much not being touted as the next big bad guy. And the neoliberal powers were struggling a bit for plausible villains in the late 90's, so if they could have got away with using Russia for that purpose they certainly would have.
 
SpookyFrank said:
When Putin first came to power he was our new best mate. Despite the war crimes he was already up to his elbows in.

Before Putin got in, Russia was on the bones of its arse and in no position to be much of a threat to anyone. Anyone with any kind of organised defence apparatus anyway. Russia was very much not being touted as the next big bad guy. And the neoliberal powers were struggling a bit for plausible villains in the late 90's, so if they could have got away with using Russia for that purpose they certainly would have.
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You are right. And they did.
Posted this earlier but worth reposting for those who may not have seen it. The only winners here are, as ever, the war profiteers.

scheerpost.com

Hedges: Chronicle of a War Foretold

I was in Eastern Europe in 1989 reporting on the revolutions that overthrew the ossified communist dictatorships that led to the collapse of the Soviet Union. It was a time of hope. NATO, with the breakup of the Soviet empire, became obsolete.
scheerpost.com scheerpost.com
 
weltweit said:
Good question on BBC r4 any questions

If Putin used a battlefield nuke in Ukraine what would NATO's response be?

The panel didn't have great answers.
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I couldn't bring myself to share the blase optimism of those, on both right and left, who shared a similarly optimistic view of the world in 1989, although I was tempted and sometimes succumbed to it.

But I think I always knew that we were walking into a nightmare, and that we might look on the cold war as the halcyon years of relative stability. We've been building up to this moment for 30 years.

A few years ago, I thought we'd slipped into a JG Ballard novel. Now I think it might be one of the less sci-fi, more alternative reality-type books by Brian Aldiss.
 
Last edited:
I thought this was interesting:

www.dailykos.com

Ukraine Update: Putin didn't have the army he thought he had, because of corruption he allowed

I’ve linked to this thread several times because it is amazing from top to bottom. But let me home in on these two sections: Exit defense minister who fought crony oligarch arms dealers, enter guy who knew how to “get along.” As a result, Kamil Galeev...
www.dailykos.com

Talks about the corruption in Russian weapons manufacture:

When I was in Cuba a few years back, I was able to buy cigars from a guy who worked at the official state factory making them. Everyone pilfered a certain amount, which they would then sell on the black market. That’s what’s clearly happening here: the Rothenbergs and other arms manufacturers pilfer; the steel-, iron-, and component-manufacturers pilfer; the plant managers pilfer; the employees pilfer; the unit commanders pilfer; the supply officers pilfer; the soldiers pilfer. It’s a wonderful grift. Everyone benefits! Well, except when war is called. Suddenly, all that equipment that was supposedly in the field turns out to have been an illusion, long sold off for Italian villas and bottles of vodka. That’s likely why we haven’t seen much of a Russian Air Force in action. I bet they can’t even get their birds in the air.
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Not sure whether that last sentence is right, but it does remind me of when I worked for a company selling computers in the mid 70s. On Russian contracts they always used to send out a gross of screwdrivers with any system on the principle that flooding the market would mean there there was at least a couple for the actual work. Looks like not a lot has changed :thumbs:

plus a nice little snippet from bellingcat
Russian "court" approved today Russia's censor RosComNadzor's fine imposed on @bellingcat for not branding itself "foreign agent". The fine is half a million rubles.
We will wait one week and then gladly pay the 10 cents. pic.twitter.com/QEJ8OjawaT
— Christo Grozev (@christogrozev) March 3, 2022
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