The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
We haven't heard much from Sarah Ashton-Cirillo for a while .
Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24
- Thread starter kebabking
- Start date
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
Russian Pilot Betrays Colleagues Who Attacked Ohmatdyt Children’s Hospital in Kyiv
The pilot forwarded documents to Ukraine related to the activities of his military unit as well as private photos of the command staff of the 22nd Heavy Bombing Aviation Division, HUR said.
www.kyivpost.com
Brave pilot, and a useful development if it ever comes to identifying war crimes.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
War crimes have been not only identified but also investigated and some culprits convicted over the last 2 yearsRussian Pilot Betrays Colleagues Who Attacked Ohmatdyt Children’s Hospital in Kyiv
The pilot forwarded documents to Ukraine related to the activities of his military unit as well as private photos of the command staff of the 22nd Heavy Bombing Aviation Division, HUR said.
Brave pilot, and a useful development if it ever comes to identifying war crimes.
editor
hiraethified
Very brave.Russian Pilot Betrays Colleagues Who Attacked Ohmatdyt Children’s Hospital in Kyiv
The pilot forwarded documents to Ukraine related to the activities of his military unit as well as private photos of the command staff of the 22nd Heavy Bombing Aviation Division, HUR said.
Brave pilot, and a useful development if it ever comes to identifying war crimes.
And for all those people insisting that Ukraine should reach an agreement with THE RUSSIAN STATE how can you trust war criminals who deliberately target hospitals?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
It's really strange that the saviours of the day are nato countries, despite the alliance's long and bloody history of targeting civilians. If the russians are untrustworthy, so too are the likes of the United States, Canada, the UK, france and Italy. Yet it is on them the hopes of Ukraine rest
Chz
Stark Raving Sane
It is slightly different. NATO sees civilian casualties a fuckup, or the dreaded "collateral damage" when attacking legitimate targets. Russia just flat out targets the hospitals in the first place and pins a medal on the guy what done it. I'm not giving NATO a free ride there and they were way too casual about it in Yugoslavia, but intent does matter.
The shit that goes on in Gaza right now would be completely unacceptable. I can speak to UK training at least that British soldiers would be well within their rights to refuse orders and report their superiors for some of the things the Israelis have done. Blowing up a working hospital because maybe a half dozen baddies are hiding in a tunnel under it would get someone court martialed at the very least. There are whole handbooks on what constitutes Proportional Response.
(Read Chapter 4 - I think we do hold ourselves to a higher standard)
Edit to add: Of course laws sometimes get broken, or we wouldn't have such apparatus about to deal with it. I think how we treat these lapses is even more important than compliance to the law itself. Even the Americans no longer pin medals on people for napalming villages.
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Chz
Stark Raving Sane
I disagree about Nato, but it's difficult to prove intent one way or the other when anyone involved will be covering their asses.
Israel certainly have, I had that document on hand to argue with some hawks about the Israeli response being "proportional" and that it wasn't holding them to some higher standard to expect compliance with international law.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Surely we can just agree that bombing hospitals or other health facilities is appalling without trying to struggle for caveats?
Chz
Stark Raving Sane
There aren't any caveats. It's strictly illegal by international law. There is no proportionality rule that allows hospitals or really any other purely civilian infrastructure to be bombed directly. Proportionality only exists where due care is taken to minimise civilian death and damage in pursuit of a military target. It would not (or should not, according to their own rules and laws) be permissible to bomb an arms depot sat next door to a hospital (military or civilian!) in the British Armed Forces. They would find a different target. I condemn the Russians utterly for this, and I do the same for the Israelis no matter how many people try to excuse it.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
It's like bloody Sunday and the ballymurphy massacre never happened. That our state would never sweep the truth under the carpet for decades. And if British forces behave like that in the UK, if they murder children without repercussions, it's a big ask to argue they'll behave better abroad.
Perhaps you can point to a court martial for the American murder of 400 people in an air raid shelter in 91. To the court martials after the attack on the kunduz msf hospital in 15. To the bombing of a red crescent maternity hospital in Baghdad in 03. But they never happened. Were any of the massacres of wedding parties followed by courts martial? The sas killings in Afghanistan show what happens - ranks close and any attempt at justice impeded.
The famous doctrines of minimum use of force and proportional response are fictions to be consumed by the gullible and credulous. It’s just like the prohibition of cops whacking people on the head with truncheons, a lie. I've seen people hit on the head so often it's plain that they've been trained to whack people like that.
Countries like the UK and USA want to have it both ways, denouncing the evil russians while condoning the same behaviour in gaza. It's their interests they're pursuing, not an altruistic defence of liberty and the international rule based order. They'll drop Ukraine as soon as their interests changed, as they dropped south Vietnam and Afghanistan. They have better pr than the russians but the US, UK, france have done pretty much everything russia's done in Ukraine. Morally there's not so much to choose between them.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I don't believe there really has been an attempt to improve over time. You haven't demonstrated such. You'd have thought perhsps the most highly trained regiment in the British army wouldn't run round murdering people if things were improving. What there has been are better attempts to evade accountability.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
What does the last sentence actually mean?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
It means morally there's not much to choose between them
Ax^
Silly Rabbit
nice bit of whataboutry for a Friday evening
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
teuchter
je suis teuchter
What's the choice that is to be made, that this is relevant to?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Go back and reread the post that's confused you
SpookyFrank
Float like a caterpillar, sting like a tree
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Chz
Stark Raving Sane
We. Humanity. You seem to have a very Catholic belief that everyone is tainted by the sins of the past, which suggests it's pointless to aspire to more.
Edit: Ah, forget it. I'm trying to be optimistic about people on a day that's not really suggested to me that there's any truth to it. Maybe I'll wake up thinking people get better, but right now it's not sticking.
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SpookyFrank
Float like a caterpillar, sting like a tree
Russian Pilot Betrays Colleagues Who Attacked Ohmatdyt Children’s Hospital in Kyiv
The pilot forwarded documents to Ukraine related to the activities of his military unit as well as private photos of the command staff of the 22nd Heavy Bombing Aviation Division, HUR said.
Brave pilot, and a useful development if it ever comes to identifying war crimes.
I hope he got himself very far away from Russia before he sent all that stuff.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
You're forgetting Purgatory me old mucker. That can take yonks.
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