planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
We've come so far since the Iron Age
Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24
- Thread starter kebabking
- Start date
ska invita
back on the other side
lets pray elon musk doesnt see these
discokermit
Well-Known Member
i wonder if it is anything to do with confusing A.I.? making the tank look like an outbuilding to trick drones using ai to spot targets?
we will know for sure when the next time you have to do some captcha test you have to click on the boxes that have a tank-in-a-shed in them.
we will know for sure when the next time you have to do some captcha test you have to click on the boxes that have a tank-in-a-shed in them.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
could be. it seems to work, whatever it is.
Chz
Stark Raving Sane
AIUI, the turle tanks themselves are not particularly effective weapons. They're usually T-62s. What they do is get the attention of the target and absorb a lot of the incoming fire so that things behind them can maneuver into place. Hopefully the target gives its position away in attacking it. And if they do get scrapped, hey it's a T-62 with a shed on it. They have plenty of those.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
Chz
Stark Raving Sane
Well yeah, if it's running about making figure 8s it's not attacking anyone, is it? I don't think the Ukrainians give a fig what they're up to behind Russian lines. It's effective against light drones, but any real AT weapon wouldn't care much about it. Ukrainians are short on those now though.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
Chz
Stark Raving Sane
Sounds like it's remote control to stop wasting drivers. Clever! Makes sense though, given the Ukrainian reports on how they're used in assaults make it seem suicidal to drive one.
Editing to add:
I get the idea must be something like this. Even unmanned, you can't ignore a tank driving straight at you. They've made it immune to cheap drone attacks, so you have to use a real anti-tank weapon on it. Which gives away the firing team's location if nothing else, and definitely makes for a distraction. And the Ukrainians don't have infinite AT weapons the way they do for grenades and drones.
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discokermit
Well-Known Member
very good article here at the royal united services institute website, The Attritional Art of War: Lessons from the Russian War on Ukraine
they say they are the worlds oldest and the uk's leading defence and security think tank, which may be a thing or may not, im no judge. but it explains the situation in ukraine perfectly in my opinion.
edit to add, also explains why there was no "stalemate".
they say they are the worlds oldest and the uk's leading defence and security think tank, which may be a thing or may not, im no judge. but it explains the situation in ukraine perfectly in my opinion.
edit to add, also explains why there was no "stalemate".
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TopCat
Putin fanboy
An interesting article on attritional warfare. The Attritional Art of War: Lessons from the Russian War on Ukraine
discokermit
Well-Known Member
TopCat
Putin fanboy
Sorry. I do usually read stuff in a link.
Dogsauce
I’ve got Skol but I’m not a Scholar
They’ve packed them with electronic warfare stuff to prevent drone attacks. They’re used to protect other nearby vehicles in this manner, not as attacking vehicles themselves. The armour protects against drone strikes (and as others have said, Ukraine is short on stuff more effective against armour, although that should change shortly). It all looks a bit A-team but for the current situation it does work to some extent. Quite unusual for Russia to show such innovation, but I think they’ve adapted quite a lot recently from the old top-down management style - see also prompt missile strikes on high value Ukrainian stuff - it used to take a long time to get stuff through the command chain by which time the target would have moved.
Fez909
toilet expert
The problem with that article, and why it doesn't apply to either Ukraine or potential future wars between the 'Great Powers' is that it seems mostly to be written from an attackers point of view. It makes the case that Russia's military organisation is superior, but all of the things it says not to do, Russia is doing.
It mentions that attackers should not be caught in the trap of trying to capture territory that is politically significant, rather than helpful to its industry or economy. But Russia is throwing thousands of people to their deaths every week to capture tiny villages, with no economic value.
Also, it says that in the case of an attritional war, the industrial output of the nation is more important than the high tech equipment. When you have 6 of the top 10 countries by GDP in NATO, and another a solid ally of NATO countries, with two that are either neutral or also on the same 'side', that gives a huge advantage to NATO. And NATO would not be the attacking country in a future war between, presumably, China/Russia/etc. At least, it won't be trying to occupy territory.
The US Navy is so large it's obscene. On its own it could probably blockade Russia, but when you consider there is also Turkey and the Baltic/Scandanavian countries, all in NATO, and able to effectively shut down anything going in or out of their two main seaport areas, and then Japan on the other side, Russia would be fucked on the sea. China has plenty of ships and they're building at an insane/scary rate, but they're also untested in war, and their carriers never leave shallow waters.
So, you've got a shitload of coutries, all armed to the teeth with superior weapons, that would be able to stop either of the two main powers from doing anything by sea.
On land, it might be a different matter, but again, NATO would be defending. They have no need or want to occupy China or Russia, so is the assumption that they would be trying to occupy NATO countries? Perhaps the baltics and Poland. And for China, of course, Taiwan.
Neither of these would be attritional wars. Russia would be destroyed if they tried to take Poland, probably even without the Americans help.
Taiwan, I have no idea, but I know that USA has a defense pact with them, and has been arming them to the teeth, too. And China would have to try an amphibious invasion, which no one has done for 70 years. they don't have the equipment to do that (yet), so they would have to use civilian ships to transport troops, which would be easy to defend against.
So again, defending, with no need for maneovre warfare. Just bloodbath after bloodbath.
Ukraine's economy is shite, and obviously much worse since the Russian invasion. But it is backed, to some degree, by the same economies we talked about. So as long as funding continues, that should mean Ukraine can succesfully defend.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
first point, russia didn't get trapped, it was ukraine that trapped itself defending them. russia is grinding away all along the line, concentrating force where ukraine does to attrite them. thats how it works.
gdp, this is the wrong way of looking at things. you have to look at manufacturing and resources. the west has mainly sub contracted its manufacturing to asia. the whole west cant compete today in the manufacture of shells with russia and north korea. china and india are the biggest producers and both on friendly terms with russia despite heavy pressure from the west. the manufacturing base of the west has been eroding for decades.
is the us navy invincible to long range hypersonic missiles? or drone boats like the ukrainians have used to good effect?
nato is involved in a land war now in ukraine?
you make the same mistake there that they warn about in the article, it wouldn't be over in a month.
taiwan, who knows. but i think the chinese will do it when they are ready.
bloodbath after bloodbath that their armies and societies have been set up to sustain while ours haven't been.
it is. it might. they can't.
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
A Russian attack on Kharkiv has left at least three children injured.
Russian attack against Kharkiv injures at least 4, including children
Russian attack against Kharkiv injures at least 4, including children
Chz
Stark Raving Sane
I'll take that one. Decades-old Patriots have shot them down over Kiev and the SM-6 system the USN is rolling out is far more capable. Anything can be brought down through attrition, but Russia would have to stockpile their current production for years to take out a single carrier. The drone boats are more of a problem, because it's trivial for a country like Russia to make them in their thousands. The USN has missiles capable of shooting down satellites, but only so many of them and they're expensive. They're far more afraid of being swamped by conventional arms than Russia's hypersonic stuff because that's the threat they've been working against for decades.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
Chz
Stark Raving Sane
Yes, but then it's if you believe the Russians have such devices and use them. That particular can of worms goes very deep. We muggles will have to live off what a majority of news sources can agree on, otherwise nothing is true and we may as well shut the thread.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
TopCat
Putin fanboy
Western military trainers could go to Ukraine, Lithuania minister says
Gabrielius Landsbergis also backs David Cameron and Emmanuel Macron on standing up to Putin
Lithuiania calls for western troops to be based in Ukraine as trainers, protected by western missile defence.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
Ukraine now plan to release and mobilise prisoners. Ukraine parliament passes bill for prisoners to join army
ska invita
back on the other side
FT https://archive.ph/RSktd
Ukraine is to start recruiting prisoners to fight against Russia under a new law designed to bolster its frontline forces, including with men convicted of murder or fraud.
......
The drive to enlist convicts is expected to result in several thousand new recruits from a prison population of about 20,000, according to David Arakhamia, a senior lawmaker. That is a fraction of the hundreds of thousands of fresh soldiers Ukraine says it needs this year to hold back Moscow’s advancing forces
.....
Ineligible convicts include serial murderers, drug traffickers and those guilty of sexual violence, corruption and national security crimes, according to Olena Shuliak, an MP from Zelenskyy’s party.
Men convicted of a single murder can sign up but would be automatically excluded if also found guilty of rape. Former high-ranking politicians and ministers who are serving prison terms are also not allowed to enlist.
Shuliak acknowledged that the law had the potential to “cause a violent reaction from society”, but said that it had been crafted together with the ministries of defence and justice, as well as the armed forces.
Ukraine is to start recruiting prisoners to fight against Russia under a new law designed to bolster its frontline forces, including with men convicted of murder or fraud.
......
The drive to enlist convicts is expected to result in several thousand new recruits from a prison population of about 20,000, according to David Arakhamia, a senior lawmaker. That is a fraction of the hundreds of thousands of fresh soldiers Ukraine says it needs this year to hold back Moscow’s advancing forces
.....
Ineligible convicts include serial murderers, drug traffickers and those guilty of sexual violence, corruption and national security crimes, according to Olena Shuliak, an MP from Zelenskyy’s party.
Men convicted of a single murder can sign up but would be automatically excluded if also found guilty of rape. Former high-ranking politicians and ministers who are serving prison terms are also not allowed to enlist.
Shuliak acknowledged that the law had the potential to “cause a violent reaction from society”, but said that it had been crafted together with the ministries of defence and justice, as well as the armed forces.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
This follows a decision first made in early 2022 when Ukraine first released prisoners with combat experience to join the AFU. Ukraine's prison population has steadily fallen since 2013/14 due to emigration.
Silas Loom
Hated by both sides
Two very distinct sets of plans, presumably.
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