Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[editor]

America's dumbest member of Congress was rebuked by a historian and the grandson of Holocaust survivors after likening Ukraine to Nazi Germany during a hearing Wednesday

“If the chamber is interested in the degree of far-right participation in Ukrainian politics, you can be assured that no far-right party has ever crossed 3 percent … in a Ukrainian election,” he said. “So, of course, there are bad people in every country, but by any comparative standard, it is a very small phenomenon.”

“In Russia, on the other hand, the army includes openly Nazi formations … the government itself is fascist in character, and it is carrying out a war, which includes deportation of children by the tens of thousands, the open intention of destroying a state, as well as mass torture,” Snyder said. “So if we’re looking for fascism, and if there is anyone who is sincerely concerned about halting fascism or racism, you would wish to halt Russia.”

Moskowitz confronts Greene on Ukraine, Nazi remarks

Rep. Jared Moskowitz (D-Fla.) confronted Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Ga.) in a Wednesday hearing about her false claims that Nazism was rampant in Ukraine — an argument frequently touted by Russ…

thehill.com

This is the same Marjorie Taylor Greene who spread conspiracy theories about Jewish space lasers and said mask and vaccine mandates were like the Holocaust

There's a very uncomfortable reality for those foolish enough to swallow Putin's 'denazification' bullshit.

“In Russia, on the other hand, the army includes openly Nazi formations … the government itself is fascist in character, and it is carrying out a war, which includes deportation of children by the tens of thousands, the open intention of destroying a state, as well as mass torture,” Snyder said. “So if we’re looking for fascism, and if there is anyone who is sincerely concerned about halting fascism or racism, you would wish to halt Russia.”

 

[Yossarian]

Greene didn't seem to have a problem with Nazis when she shared a stage with one at a white nationalist conference a few days after the invasion

Before introducing Greene, Fuentes told the crowd, “Now they’re going on about Russia and Vladimir Putin is Hitler — they say that’s not a good thing.” Fuentes also asked the crowd to “give a round of applause for Russia” and responded, “Absolutely,” as attendees chanted “Putin! Putin!”

After Fuentes introduced Greene, she told the crowd they were “canceled Americans,” HuffPost reported. "You’ve been handed the responsibility to fight for our Constitution and stand for our freedoms, and stop the Democrats, who are the Communist Party of the United States of America,” Greene said.

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archive.ph

 

[editor]

Now they’re going on about Russia and Vladimir Putin is Hitler — they say that’s not a good thing

Absolutely shocking.

 

[Yossarian]

Greene introduced this amendment to the Ukraine aid bill yesterday



"I mean if you want to fund the war, why don’t you go fight in it," she said. "Show your support for Ukraine."

MTG introduces amendment to require House members to enlist in Ukrainian military if they vote for Ukraine aid

Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-GA) introduced an amendment to require the conscription into the Ukrainian military of any House members who vote in favor of a Ukraine aid bill. “Any

gazette.com

 

[kabbes]

could you point out any revelling in the thought of a new cold war?

I’m not going to pick individual paragraphs out of context from a thousand pages of posts, no. I’ve no interest in a scholastic nitpicking of he-said-she-said. However, the considerable corpus of text to analyse in this thread is more than sufficient to be able to describe the characteristic process that I and others are referring to. The telltale signs are where a poster employs a discourse that implicitly understands the world as being divided into two great empires. All actions are seen through this prism — nobody can act without it being for the purpose of one of those empires and antagonistic to the other. It is thus simply assumed that to be against the most antagonistic empire is to be on a positive side. Where this discourse is uncritically mobilised in combination with refusing ever to criticise one of the empires at all, under any circumstances, and regardless of harm, this becomes a case of taking sides in the assumed dichotomous war between empires. When this is also combined with finger-wagging about how the chosen empire should be left to get on with it, that’s what I would call revelling in it.

 

[spitfire]

I’m not going to pick individual paragraphs out of context from a thousand pages of posts, no. I’ve no interest in a scholastic nitpicking of he-said-she-said. However, the considerable corpus of text to analyse in this thread is more than sufficient to be able to describe the characteristic process that I and others are referring to. The telltale signs are where a poster employs a discourse that implicitly understands the world as being divided into two great empires. All actions are seen through this prism — nobody can act without it being for the purpose of one of those empires and antagonistic to the order. It is thus simply assumed that to be against the most antagonistic empire is to be on a positive side. Where this discourse is uncritically mobilised in combination with refusing ever to criticise one of the empires at all, under any circumstances, and regardless of harm, this becomes a case of taking sides in the assumed dichotomous war between empires. When this is also combined with finger-wagging about how the chosen empire should be left to get on with it, that’s what I would call revelling in it.

Beautifully put.

 

[krtek a houby]

"I mean if you want to fund the war, why don’t you go fight in it," she said. "Show your support for Ukraine."

Sounds oddly familiar

 

[discokermit]

I’m not going to pick individual paragraphs out of context from a thousand pages of posts, no. I’ve no interest in a scholastic nitpicking of he-said-she-said. However, the considerable corpus of text to analyse in this thread is more than sufficient to be able to describe the characteristic process that I and others are referring to. The telltale signs are where a poster employs a discourse that implicitly understands the world as being divided into two great empires. All actions are seen through this prism — nobody can act without it being for the purpose of one of those empires and antagonistic to the other. It is thus simply assumed that to be against the most antagonistic empire is to be on a positive side. Where this discourse is uncritically mobilised in combination with refusing ever to criticise one of the empires at all, under any circumstances, and regardless of harm, this becomes a case of taking sides in the assumed dichotomous war between empires. When this is also combined with finger-wagging about how the chosen empire should be left to get on with it, that’s what I would call revelling in it.

so, you can't then.

 

[kabbes]

so, you can't then.

If that’s how you want to interpret my message, discokermit, then good luck to you. You’re so mired in it, you can’t see the swamp for the bog.

 

[discokermit]

If that’s how you want to interpret my message, discokermit, then good luck to you. You’re so mired in it, you can’t see the swamp for the bog.

so thats a no then

 

[kabbes]

so thats a no then

If that’s how you want to interpret my message, discokermit, then good luck to you. You’re so mired in it, you can’t see the swamp for the bog.

I would note, however, that plenty of others don’t seem to be interpreting it as a no.

 

[ska invita]

Snyder said. “So if we’re looking for fascism, and if there is anyone who is sincerely concerned about halting fascism or racism, you would wish to halt Russia.”

Yes, but "wishing to halt Russia" is one thing, and wishing to send ever younger Ukrainian conscripts to their deaths with the outcome of achieving fuck all other than dragging out a lost war is not the same thing.

The occupied land is lost, US, UK and Ukrainian generals all recognise that.... Even if more US money/weapons do come on board it won't change that reality.

How we stop the fascist creep that's taking place around the world is absolutely vital to think about and resist (not least when our own governments are supporting/arming a fascistic Israeli state currently enacting ethic cleansing and provoking a potentially much wider war)
...wishing for the continuation of this war in Ukraine does nothing to halt that fascistic spread.

 

[discokermit]

I would note, however, that plenty of others don’t seem to be interpreting it as a no.

misinterpreting a mischaracterisation is a sign of great intelligence. enjoy your likes.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Yes, but "wishing to halt Russia" is one thing, and wishing to send ever younger Ukrainian conscripts to their deaths with the outcome of achieving fuck all other than dragging out a lost war is not the same thing.

The occupied land is lost, US, UK and Ukrainian generals all recognise that.... Even if more US money/weapons do come on board it won't change that reality

Why wouldn't it change it?.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes, but "wishing to halt Russia" is one thing, and wishing to send ever younger Ukrainian conscripts to their deaths with the outcome of achieving fuck all other than dragging out a lost war is not the same thing.

This.

 

[discokermit]

Why wouldn't it change it?.

because the west can't make artillery shells fast enough. and ukraine is running out of people to fire them.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Why wouldn't it change it?.

It could change it, I guess. It could drag the war out even longer, meaning the deaths of even more Ukrainian and Russian conscripts.

 

[sleaterkinney]

because the west can't make artillery shells fast enough. and ukraine is running out of people to fire them.

He said that more weapons wouldn't change it. We have given f.a. so far btw.

 

[sleaterkinney]

It could change it, I guess. It could drag the war out even longer, meaning the deaths of even more Ukrainian and Russian conscripts.

And if you stop it now, what about the Ukrainians under Russian occupation?

 

[Chz]

It could change it, I guess. It could drag the war out even longer, meaning the deaths of even more Ukrainian and Russian conscripts.

It's going to happen anyhow. Russia sees weakness and they won't settle for less than total victory now. I mean, if Russia shows up to the table tomorrow and offers to just keep what they have and stop the shelling, I'd be in favour of that. But that doesn't look like it's going to happen, and the Ukrainians have decided - it is their country, after all - that they're not hip to being completely taken over by Russia, having their language outlawed, and their kids dispersed across Siberia like has happened in the occupied zones. So more people are going to die regardless, it's just whether we give them a hope in hell of keeping what they have or not.

 

[sleaterkinney]

.

 

[discokermit]

He said that more weapons wouldn't change it. We have given f.a. so far btw.

more weapons isn't enough weapons.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Which Ukrainians have decided? The ones hiding from the draft? Those Ukrainians? They're the ones who are going to be doing the dying, after all.

 

[Chz]

Which Ukrainians have decided? The ones hiding from the draft? Those Ukrainians? They're the ones who are going to be doing the dying, after all.

The democratically elected government of Ukraine, which - last time I saw a poll published - would still walk home an election if their constitution permitted such a thing in wartime. That is how countries work, more or less, for better or worse. You could do the Swiss thing of having a referendum every time a gnat farts, but the polls suggest that Ukrainians wouldn't vote for "let Russia take us over" any time soon.

The notion that nothing is ethically sensible unless 100% of the population is behind it is... well, it's a tad idealistic.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's going to happen anyhow. Russia sees weakness and they won't settle for less than total victory now. I mean, if Russia shows up to the table tomorrow and offers to just keep what they have and stop the shelling, I'd be in favour of that. But that doesn't look like it's going to happen, and the Ukrainians have decided - it is their country, after all - that they're not hip to being completely taken over by Russia, having their language outlawed, and their kids dispersed across Siberia like has happened in the occupied zones. So more people are going to die regardless, it's just whether we give them a hope in hell of keeping what they have or not.

tbh the recent kerfuffle in congress about funding and weapons for ukraine shows how this thing's going - say, for the sake of argument, that biden wins in november, does anyone think that the supply of arms will be either sufficient or constant? there's a fair argument that it would have been better - fewer deaths, less destruction - if ukraine had surrendered in 2022. as things are now the bloody mess will trundle on through horror after horror with ukraine at the mercy of allies who are dilatory in supplying the ordnance and funds they promise.

 

[Chz]

there's a fair argument that it would have been better - fewer deaths, less destruction - if ukraine had surrendered in 2022

I can't disagree with that. But once the decapitation move by Russia failed, the status quo was fairly locked in. They did that without Western arms.

ETA: It's entirely possible, as a result of "de-nazification", that just as many Ukrainians would have died. But a whole lot fewer Russians would have died, for sure. And some sort of guerilla campaign would be guaranteed.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The democratically elected government of Ukraine, which - last time I saw a poll published - would still walk home an election if their constitution permitted such a thing in wartime. That is how countries work, more or less, for better or worse. You could do the Swiss thing of having a referendum every time a gnat farts, but the polls suggest that Ukrainians wouldn't vote for "let Russia take us over" any time soon.

The notion that nothing is ethically sensible unless 100% of the population is behind it is... well, it's a tad idealistic.

You have spectacularly missed my point.

A majority would have backed war in Britain during WW1, too. So what? Emiline Pankhurst's lot packed in planting bombs to hand out white feathers to young men for not doing their bit by getting themselves blown up in the name of a pointless and futile war.

 

[Chz]

You have spectacularly missed my point.

A majority would have backed war in Britain during WW1, too. So what? Emiline Pankhurst's lot packed in planting bombs to hand out white feathers to young men for not doing their bit by getting themselves blown up in the name of a pointless and futile war.

My point is it's their country to do as they please with. We can decide to provide support or not, but we have no right to say "You're doing it wrong" unless they're contravening the rules of war.

 

[emanymton]

You have spectacularly missed my point.

A majority would have backed war in Britain during WW1, too. So what? Emiline Pankhurst's lot packed in planting bombs to hand out white feathers to young men for not doing their bit by getting themselves blown up in the name of a pointless and futile war.

That's not really a very good comparison isn't? Maybe there is a slight difference Britain in WWI and Ukraine now., just maybe

 

[Elpenor]

Yes, but "wishing to halt Russia" is one thing, and wishing to send ever younger Ukrainian conscripts to their deaths with the outcome of achieving fuck all other than dragging out a lost war is not the same thing.

The occupied land is lost, US, UK and Ukrainian generals all recognise that.... Even if more US money/weapons do come on board it won't change that reality.

How we stop the fascist creep that's taking place around the world is absolutely vital to think about and resist (not least when our own governments are supporting/arming a fascistic Israeli state currently enacting ethic cleansing and provoking a potentially much wider war)
...wishing for the continuation of this war in Ukraine does nothing to halt that fasistic spread.

Very well said.