Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[krtek a houby]

Generally you are too incoherent to understand

Bit out of order, no?

 

[discokermit]

Please for the love of atheism stop pronouncing things as though you're an expert, it sounds ridiculous. Neither you nor anyone here is well enough informed on the subject to talk certainties.

its an opinion, not a certainty. and ive heard lots of actual experts talk nothing but absolute shit since the beginning of this thing, so i wouldnt pin any hopes there if i were you.

 

[Ax^]

Generally you are too incoherent to understand

and generally you sound like some Putin fanboy
but that's the way the cards fall some time

 

[Rob Ray]

its an opinion, not a certainty.

You assert this stuff as though it's a certainty, but that doesn't, as you presumably hope, make you sound authoritative.

 

[emanymton]

deliberately bombing the shite out of civilian hospitals, museums, schools and other civilian infrastructure but barely hitting actual military targets
attacking individuals, as in Bucha ... shooting POWS ...

those are - or should be - war crimes ...

Apparently it depends on who is doing the bombing.

It's like I used to think that imperialism was bad, but apparently there is good and bad imperialism.

You know someone's politics being so shit they think a Russia victory is a good thing is one thing. But the actual sense of joy at all the death and destruction that comes through from some is really disturbing

 

[discokermit]

You assert this stuff as though it's a certainty, but that doesn't, as you presumably hope, make you sound authoritative.

what the living fuck are you on about. the board is people sharing opinions. chatting. sorry i havent got a phd.
put me on ignore if you find me too falsely authoritative.

 

[TopCat]

And I have consistently criticised it.

Fair enough.

 

[TopCat]

Bit out of order, no?

No in this specific instance I don’t think so. I often cannot ascertain what they are trying to communicate.

 

[Ax^]

No in this specific instance I don’t think so. I often cannot ascertain what they are trying to communicate.

seeming as your rarely reply to anyone's direct questions on this subject is just me you fail to understand or anyone who question you love for russian imperialism

 

[krtek a houby]

No in this specific instance I don’t think so. I often cannot ascertain what they are trying to communicate.

As another poster above reasonably pointed out, not everyone here has a PhD.

Not all of us can be erudite and as well read/informed as others but in fairness to ax, most of the time they get their points across if a bit rough around the edges.

Not having a particular go at you, but lately there's been a number of snipings at their grammar etc which imho are unfair.

Obviously, this is an extremely emotive topic and words and views will be exchanged that will fret.

 

[Chz]

if attacking civilian infrastructure is a war crime when the russians do it then it is no less a war crime if ukraine does it.

Straw man. I don't think anyone has said that attacking power stations or rail infrastructure in Ukraine is a War Crime. Just hospitals and shopping malls. I'd venture to say that oil refineries are rather more like the former than the latter. Not only that, but I've never seen oil refineries ever defined as civilian infrastructure. They're strategic, same as power plants and rail depots.

 

[Pickman's model]

Straw man. I don't think anyone has said that attacking power stations or rail infrastructure in Ukraine is a War Crime. Just hospitals and shopping malls. I'd venture to say that oil refineries are rather more like the former than the latter. Not only that, but I've never seen oil refineries ever defined as civilian infrastructure. They're strategic, same as power plants and rail depots.

i don't think anyone has said attacking civilian infrastructure in ukraine is a war crime. i know, because i read it this very morning. perhaps you could outline how you see infrastructure of all sorts so we can understand your idiosyncratic classification. i'd say that infrastructure which isn't military, related to the production, planning, preparation or projection of military force, is civilian. i'd like to see your working for an oil refinery not being civilian.

 

[Chz]

i'd say that infrastructure which isn't military, related to the production, planning, preparation or projection of military force, is civilian

I think it's fair to take that approach if you're of the mind that all strikes on non-military owned targets are pretty much a war crime. That's not a concept that I'm opposed to, even if I don't necessarily subscribe to it.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think it's fair to take that approach if you're of the mind that all strikes on non-military owned targets are pretty much a war crime. That's not a concept that I'm opposed to, even if I don't necessarily subscribe to it.

i'm not saying 'everything that's not military owned' - a strike on the kremlin, for example, perfectly legitimate. oil refineries are a) non-military owned and b) not supplying the military as their prime or even a major purpose. the ukrainians haven't even used supply of petrol to the military as a figleaf for their bombing of refineries. as far as i'm concerned oil refineries are civilian infrastructure altho obvs i'll entertain arguments to the contrary

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

i'm not saying 'everything that's not military owned' - a strike on the kremlin, for example, perfectly legitimate. oil refineries are a) non-military owned and b) not supplying the military as their prime or even a major purpose. the ukrainians haven't even used supply of petrol to the military as a figleaf for their bombing of refineries. as far as i'm concerned oil refineries are civilian infrastructure altho obvs i'll entertain arguments to the contrary

One would imagine the argument would go something like if Ukraine can cause serious harm to Russia's number one source of income then they may be less well able to continue their illegal war.

 

[Chz]

i'm not saying 'everything that's not military owned' - a strike on the kremlin, for example, perfectly legitimate. oil refineries are a) non-military owned and b) not supplying the military as their prime or even a major purpose. the ukrainians haven't even used supply of petrol to the military as a figleaf for their bombing of refineries. as far as i'm concerned oil refineries are civilian infrastructure altho obvs i'll entertain arguments to the contrary.

I think you'd be wrong to say it's not a major purpose. Russian power is 7% oil (less than half of coal generation), and it's negligible for home heating. There is not a sizeable domestic plastics industry. The majority goes to transport, which is heavily involved in the special military operation. At that point the line is fuzzy - is a rail freight depot a legitimate target? I think it's possible to argue either way. I personally think freight depots and oil refineries are legit, but I'm comfortable with saying it's a blurred border and I wouldn't say it's wrong to say they aren't.

That being said, I'm not sure what Ukraine is hoping to achieve - Russia's refining capacity is vast, and most of it far out of their reach.

One would imagine the argument would go something like if Ukraine can cause serious harm to Russia's number one source of income then they may be less well able to continue their illegal war.

That's what makes it odd - Russia's number one source of income is crude. The refineries have little to do with it. They were making a small fortune selling their excess diesel to the EU, but that's dried up and they're burning twice as much of it domestically now anyhow.

 

[Pickman's model]

One would imagine the argument would go something like if Ukraine can cause serious harm to Russia's number one source of income then they may be less well able to continue their illegal war.

One would. But this doesn't address the legality of the Ukrainian acts

 

[Pickman's model]

I think you'd be wrong to say it's not a major purpose. Russian power is 7% oil (less than half of coal generation), and it's negligible for home heating. There is not a sizeable domestic plastics industry. The majority goes to transport, which is heavily involved in the special military operation. At that point the line is fuzzy - is a rail freight depot a legitimate target? I think it's possible to argue either way. I personally think freight depots and oil refineries are legit, but I'm comfortable with saying it's a blurred border and I wouldn't say it's wrong to say they aren't.

That being said, I'm not sure what Ukraine is hoping to achieve - Russia's refining capacity is vast, and most of it far out of their reach.


That's what makes it odd - Russia's number one source of income is crude. The refineries have little to do with it. They were making a small fortune selling their excess diesel to the EU, but that's dried up and they're burning twice as much of it domestically now anyhow.

Thank you for reminding me they've banned the export of petrol for six months so not earning any foreign exchange money

 

[teuchter]

Those who are keen to emphasise they are "pro Ukraine" and "anti Russian war crimes", what at this point would you like to see happen: greater and more direct military support for Ukraine from other countries? Or, just more supportive internet postings, more typing out of repetitive statements about the Russian state's war crimes, more Ukrainian flags in the windows of Europe's comfortably-off residential neighbourhoods and more Crimea beach party T-shirts? Is there a third option?

Those who are being labelled as "Pro Russia", I'm not going to try and defend them or explain their motivations, but I do think it's helpful to have some people saying, look, things really aren't looking good for Ukraine right now. Because otherwise it's quite easy to sit and feel reassured that Ukraine is standing fast, and do have a chance of something vaguely approaching "victory". And a lot of people feeling that way is not conducive to any extra support being given to Ukraine.

 

[Pickman's model]

Those who are keen to emphasise they are "pro Ukraine" and "anti Russian war crimes", what at this point would you like to see happen: greater and more direct military support for Ukraine from other countries? Or, just more supportive internet postings, more typing out of repetitive statements about the Russian state's war crimes, more Ukrainian flags in the windows of Europe's comfortably-off residential neighbourhoods and more Crimea beach party T-shirts? Is there a third option?

Those who are being labelled as "Pro Russia", I'm not going to try and defend them or explain their motivations, but I do think it's helpful to have some people saying, look, things really aren't looking good for Ukraine right now. Because otherwise it's quite easy to sit and feel reassured that Ukraine is standing fast, and do have a chance of something vaguely approaching "victory". And a lot of people feeling that way is not conducive to any extra support being given to Ukraine.

I'd love to hear your opinion

 

[Raheem]

Those who are keen to emphasise they are "pro Ukraine" and "anti Russian war crimes", what at this point would you like to see happen: greater and more direct military support for Ukraine from other countries? Or, just more supportive internet postings, more typing out of repetitive statements about the Russian state's war crimes, more Ukrainian flags in the windows of Europe's comfortably-off residential neighbourhoods and more Crimea beach party T-shirts? Is there a third option?

Those who are being labelled as "Pro Russia", I'm not going to try and defend them or explain their motivations, but I do think it's helpful to have some people saying, look, things really aren't looking good for Ukraine right now. Because otherwise it's quite easy to sit and feel reassured that Ukraine is standing fast, and do have a chance of something vaguely approaching "victory". And a lot of people feeling that way is not conducive to any extra support being given to Ukraine.

This really needs a new thread with a title something like "Are most urbanites idiots, Nazis or traitors?" A poll, maybe.

 

[andysays]

This really needs a new thread with a title something like "Are most urbanites idiots, Nazis or traitors?" A poll, maybe.

"Urban75's lack of empathy for ordinary people accused of supporting Russian war crimes"

 

[teuchter]

I'd love to hear your opinion

On what specifically?

 

[Silas Loom]

Those who are keen to emphasise they are "pro Ukraine" and "anti Russian war crimes", what at this point would you like to see happen: greater and more direct military support for Ukraine from other countries? Or, just more supportive internet postings, more typing out of repetitive statements about the Russian state's war crimes, more Ukrainian flags in the windows of Europe's comfortably-off residential neighbourhoods and more Crimea beach party T-shirts? Is there a third option?

Those who are being labelled as "Pro Russia", I'm not going to try and defend them or explain their motivations, but I do think it's helpful to have some people saying, look, things really aren't looking good for Ukraine right now. Because otherwise it's quite easy to sit and feel reassured that Ukraine is standing fast, and do have a chance of something vaguely approaching "victory". And a lot of people feeling that way is not conducive to any extra support being given to Ukraine.

The bolded bit, please. NATO troops holding the Belarus border and swamping Moldova, freeing Ukrainians for the Donbas front. All the air defence that NATO has, wherever in Ukraine it can do most good. Missiles in their thousands that can take out every piece of Russian logistical infrastructure that enables the war, especially bridges.

I don’t think that this risks nuclear escalation any more than the current level of support. And it’s what Ukraine needs. I think I’ve said so elsewhere in the thread.

 

[StoneRoad]

IMO - Ukraine needs a properly adequate supply of munitions, especially missiles for air defence systems and the more mundane stuff like artillery shells & drones. Plus enough tanks, IFVs and aircraft.
They also need all the demining equipment that their new corps needs ...

Corps of 5000 demining specialists established in Ukraine

Read more

newsukraine.rbc.ua

 

[planetgeli]

Or, just more supportive internet postings, more typing out of repetitive statements about the Russian state's war crimes,

People posting on the internet bitching about people posting on the internet. Love it.

As for repetitive - yes, in real life I only ever say everything once.

Tbf, the rest of your post was fairly coherent.

 

[teuchter]

People posting on the internet bitching about people posting on the internet. Love it.

As for repetitive - yes, in real life I only ever say everything once.

Tbf, the rest of your post was fairly coherent.

The point is that we all know Russia is doing horrific things, which can be classed as war crimes but whatever they are classed as, they are horrific. And the stating of this fact, over and over, in response to statements that Russia is prevailing in the conflict... it's just rather frustrating because it doesn't seem to get us anywhere. Nor do the constant demands that these actions must be "condemned" as if that's going to make any difference to anything.

 

[Raheem]

Nor do the constant demands that these actions must be "condemned" as if that's going to make any difference to anything.

Might help posters understand what sort of people they are communicating with.

 

[Pickman's model]

The point is that we all know Russia is doing horrific things, which can be classed as war crimes but whatever they are classed as, they are horrific. And the stating of this fact, over and over, in response to statements that Russia is prevailing in the conflict... it's just rather frustrating because it doesn't seem to get us anywhere. Nor do the constant demands that these actions must be "condemned" as if that's going to make any difference to anything

It's as though you'd only just joined urban

 

[discokermit]

The bolded bit, please. NATO troops holding the Belarus border and swamping Moldova, freeing Ukrainians for the Donbas front. All the air defence that NATO has, wherever in Ukraine it can do most good. Missiles in their thousands that can take out every piece of Russian logistical infrastructure that enables the war, especially bridges.

I don’t think that this risks nuclear escalation any more than the current level of support. And it’s what Ukraine needs. I think I’ve said so elsewhere in the thread.

so, you send all the air defence to ukraine. what will defend the uk? or the us? i don't think you have thought this through.