The Canary, views and discussion...

[cantsin]

didn't know wiki-bloke was a randist.

I think wikipedia is one of the best things on the internet - although its fucked pub quizzes.

+ Peter Thiel ( Skype etc ) - loony Randist , + Elon Musk " not as libertarian as Peter"

 

[Tom A]

I think wikipedia is one of the best things on the internet - although its fucked pub quizzes.

Wikipedia's strengths are that it requires any claims to be backed up with a reference, references need to be checked for validity, and articles need to aim to have a neutral point of view. These are all things that news outlets should take inspiration from.

+ Peter Thiel ( Skype etc ) - loony Randist , + Elon Musk " not as libertarian as Peter"

Ayn Rand has inspired many of the big names in Silicon Valley. As much as you can disagree with their stance, it doesn't detract to the quality of the products they produce.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Wikipedia's strengths are that it requires any claims to be backed up with a reference, references need to be checked for validity, and articles need to aim to have a neutral point of view. These are all things that news outlets should take inspiration from.


Ayn Rand has inspired many of the big names in Silicon Valley. As much as you can disagree with their stance, it doesn't detract to the quality of the products they produce.

it detracts from the nazi-hippy ideological bollocks they promote though.

 

[Tom A]

it detracts from the nazi-hippy ideological bollocks they promote though.

So how would you go about countering that then? Boycotting will have limited effect and as we all know, there is not a single thing out there that doesn't bear the taint of some unpleasant individual or company somewhere down the line in this capitalist society.

 

[DotCommunist]

do as best can to make sure the information about people like theil and musk is not buried. Theils already proven willing and able to stamp out media voices he doesn't like (gawker etc). Musk in particular projects a pro-human image, which randism is not

 

[Tom A]

do as best can to make sure the information about people like theil and musk is not buried. Theils already proven willing and able to stamp out media voices he doesn't like (gawker etc). Musk in particular projects a pro-human image, which randism is not

I have mixed feelings about the demise of Gawker - as much as it's disturbing that one powerful individual can permanently silence them, Gawker was pretty awful. Point taken though.

 

[J Ed]

I have mixed feelings about the demise of Gawker - as much as it's disturbing that one powerful individual can permanently silence them, Gawker was pretty awful. Point taken though.

While generally they didn't write about topics that interested me when I did read Gawker articles I found them to be often very funny, their writing was left leaning and promoted unions and unionisation at Gawker. No small thing in new media at the time, they were the first of those sorts of websites to unionise.

Far better people than the techno-futurist far-right bastards you are going to bat for on this thread.

 

[DaveCinzano]

techno-futurist far-right bastards

Band name thread >>>>

 

[Tom A]

when I did read Gawker articles I found them to be often very funny, their writing was left leaning

All I saw at Gawker Media outlets (never really bothered with Gawker itself as it seemed to be all celebrity tosh) is promotion of toxic identity politics which smears people as [insert oppression of the week here] and gives the left a bad name, and also the flagrant invasions of people's privacy in order to get the scoop, which led in no small way to its downfall.

 

[J Ed]

All I saw at Gawker Media outlets (never really bothered with Gawker itself as it seemed to be all celebrity tosh) is promotion of toxic identity politics which smears people as [insert oppression of the week here] and gives the left a bad name, and also the flagrant invasions of privacy in order to get the scoop.

Like I said I didn't read that much from them, what I did read was better than say Buzzfeed. I'm just a bit confused about why it is you are coming down harder on the likes of Gawker yet feel the need to defend Wales, Thiel, Musk?

 

[Tom A]

Like I said I didn't read that much from them, what I did read was better than say Buzzfeed. I'm just a bit confused about why it is you are coming down harder on the likes of Gawker yet feel the need to defend Wales, Thiel, Musk?

I am not defending Thiel or Musk, I am barely sticking up for Wales. I am defending the principles behind Wikipedia, and Wales' proposed project to apply Wikipedia principles to news.

 

[J Ed]

I am not defending Thiel or Musk, I am barely sticking up for Wales. I am defending the principles behind Wikipedia, and Wales' proposed project to apply Wikipedia principles to news.

Yes you are, you are talking about the quality of the products they produce while at the same time you are needling gawker.

I'm not the first person to notice on this thread that you have this pattern of attacking the (perceived) left while defending the right.

 

[Tom A]

Yes you are, you are talking about the quality of the products they produce while at the same time you are needling gawker.

Gawker contributed very little of any worth in the end and were certainly not out-and-out "left" - any "left" output from them was a way to boost clicks and ad revenue through virtue signalling (Gawker didn't invent clickbait but they definitely popularised it), and I did acknowledge that it is disturbing that one individual with a lot of money could shut them down, no matter how unpalatable one found them. Incidentally, I do not see you calling for people to stop using Wikipedia, to go back to using cash transactions and eschewing PayPal and the like, nor do I see you bemoaning the advanced super batteries which could be a huge breakthrough in decarbonising the energy grid. All of which have contributed much more to society than Gawker ever did.

I'm not the first person to notice on this thread that you have this pattern of attacking the (perceived) left while defending the right.

So shoot me. I have this annoying (to ideologues) habit of taking a deep look of what comprises "the left" and bringing up their failings, regardless of how unpopular it makes me. I also acknowledge where "the left" have got things wrong whereas "the right" have had the correct argument, which again will probably win me few friends here.

 

[killer b]

deep

 

[J Ed]

If only there were more brave voices out there willing to be deferential to the worst people on the planet.

 

[Tom A]

If only there were more brave voices out there willing to be deferential to the worst people on the planet.

Are you really saying that Peter Thiel, Elon Musk, Jimmy Wales and company are as bad as, if not worse than:

• Vladimir Putin
• Robert Mugabe
• Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi
  
• Kim Jong-un
• Bashar al-Assad
• etc, etc, etc?

 

[J Ed]

Are you really saying that Peter Thiel, Elon Musk, Jimmy Wales and company are as bad as, if not worse than:

• Vladimir Putin
• Robert Mugabe
• Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi
  
• Kim Jong-un
• Bashar al-Assad
• etc, etc, etc?

There you go again

 

[Tom A]

There you go again

You really have no qualms about putting Thiel in the same league of horribleness as Assad??? Sheesh...

 

[J Ed]

You really have no qualms about putting Thiel in the same league of horribleness as Assad??? Sheesh...

How do you measure this stuff? I think if Thiel's political ideology was put into reality, and in some ways it is happening through the Trump administration, then it would very quickly end the possibility for decent human life on earth for all but a handful of people and after that for the handful of people too.

 

[chilango]

State of this

 

[Tom A]

How do you measure this stuff? I think if Thiel's political ideology was put into reality, and in some ways it is happening through the Trump administration, then it would very quickly end the possibility for decent human life on earth for all but a handful of people and after that for the handful of people too.

Then the left had better get its act together, stop with the narcissistic navel-gazing and divisive identity politics (a particular problem in the US) and get some proper class struggle going to counteract the "Randian agenda" - although the financial crises of the past decade have signalled the beginning of the end of neoliberalism, which of course was heavily inspired by Rand. That being said, there are plenty of people on "the left" who have political ideologies that if put into reality would, if not exactly "very quickly end the possibility for decent human life on earth for all but a handful of people and after that for the handful of people too", would still cause incredible human suffering as society twists and snaps to suit ideology.

Anyway, one can still take a dislike to Mark Zuckerberg and still use Facebook and acknowledge that, for its faults, it does enable campaigns to be promoted with an ease that was not possible before - and social media has played a factor in the rise of Corbyn in the Labour Party (and unfortunately also Trump). Likewise, one can use Wikipedia, acknowledge its usefulness and still be critical of Jimmy Wales' stances as well. When these people start running for office then these views should of course be exposed for what they are. Finally, a lot of the Randists/right-libertarians are actually pretty critical of Trump and his protectionist stance, at least prior to his election.

 

[Tom A]

Some sobering talk about how clickbait and fake news has become an increasing issue on the left as well as the right in the US: How the Left Lost Its Mind

Back in the UK, one can easily substitute Occupy Democrats and the Palmer Report with the likes of Another Angry Voice and The Canary. All good and well when the traffic is flooding in and the social media shares mount up, but it's the right who will benefit once it's discovered the emperor has no clothes.

 

[J Ed]

Some sobering talk about how clickbait and fake news has become an increasing issue on the left as well as the right in the US: How the Left Lost Its Mind

Back in the UK, one can easily substitute Occupy Democrats and the Palmer Report with the likes of Another Angry Voice and The Canary. All good and well when the traffic is flooding in and the social media shares mount up, but it's the right who will benefit once it's discovered the emperor has no clothes.

Not really the left, this describes the behaviour of people who have in common the fact that they are all neoliberals whose politics centre around policing against politics which threaten the legitimacy of institutions and governance in government and the private sector which are increasingly seen as illegitimate. What they have in common is that they are fanatically anti-Sanders in most cases and anti-Trump in all cases. Louise Mensch isn't left-wing, remember? Neither is Garland or Frum, and all three have taken to dogwhistle racism against Bernie Sanders recently.

If you want to look at what the consumption of this sort of media looks like, go and look at the Trump thread in world politics. It leads to a hyper-partisan but profoundly anti-left, conservative worldview.

 

[Tom A]

Not really the left, this describes the behaviour of people who have in common the fact that they are all neoliberals whose politics centre around policing against politics which threaten the legitimacy of institutions and governance in government and the private sector which are increasingly seen as illegitimate. What they have in common is that they are fanatically anti-Sanders in most cases and anti-Trump in all cases.

I am not sure I follow you. Are you saying that "left wing" pushers of fake news are deliberately trying to undermine the left, or at least the left that's seen as critical of the neoliberal status quo? Because I always saw those that pushed bollocks in the name of "the left" as a combination of being incredibly naive, misguided, or so fanatical that they will shut out anyone and anything that contradicts their worldview, plus a few nefarious individuals that really were trying to discredit the left by deliberately pushing bollocks.

Louise Mensch isn't left-wing, remember? Neither is Garland or Frum, and all three have taken to dogwhistle racism against Bernie Sanders recently.

I am well aware that Mensch isn't left-wing, not really heard of Garland or Frum but will take your word for it. Also not followed what's happened with Sanders since the election but again will take your word for it.

If you want to look at what the consumption of this sort of media looks like, go and look at the Trump thread in world politics. It leads to a hyper-partisan but profoundly anti-left, conservative worldview.

You mean people who, regardless of how rabidly anti-Trump they are, are still right wing masquerading as left? If so, I saw a lot of that from the Hilary campaign, and indeed from anti-Brexit campaigners in the UK.

 

[J Ed]

I am not sure I follow you. Are you saying that "left wing" pushers of fake news are deliberately trying to undermine the left, or at least the left that's seen as critical of the neoliberal status quo? Because I always saw those that pushed bollocks in the name of "the left" as a combination of being incredibly naive, misguided, or so fanatical that they will shut out anyone and anything that contradicts their worldview, plus a few nefarious individuals that really were trying to discredit the left by deliberately pushing bollocks.

I'm saying that by and large, in the context of the US, the sort of people discussed in the article are neoliberals who attack supporters of weak social democratic initatives such as single payer as being basically an internal enemy. Of course, there is a similar hysterical call out culture on the left, and these two very highly dysfunctional ways of communicating bleed into one another.

You mean people who, regardless of how rabidly anti-Trump they are, are still right wing masquerading as left? If so, I saw a lot of that from the Hilary campaign, and indeed from anti-Brexit campaigners in the UK.

Yes. Forget Frum, writer of the Axis of Evil Speech, George W Bush himself has been rehabilitated by these people.

 

[Tom A]

I'm saying that by and large, in the context of the US, the sort of people discussed in the article are neoliberals who attack supporters of weak social democratic initatives such as single payer as being basically an internal enemy. Of course, there is a similar hysterical call out culture on the left, and these two very highly dysfunctional ways of communicating bleed into one another.

So you are saying that Occupy Democrats, The Other 98% etc, are actually deep down neoliberals at heart in spite of their radical veneer? Because that is who I was referring to as the "left" pushers of fake news. However I am all too aware of how some fairly right wing people have been given an easy ride by the liberal media just because they dislike Trump.

Yes. Forget Frum, writer of the Axis of Evil Speech, George W Bush himself has been rehabilitated by these people.

I find it incredibly ironic how Bush has gone from being the bête noir of liberals and left alike of the past decade (a role that is of course now fully filled by Trump) to being an elder statesman to some of these same people. Also in regards to Brexit, it was pretty amazing how everyone suddenly started taking the words of the CBI and the Bank of England seriously.

 

[J Ed]

So you are saying that Occupy Democrats, The Other 98% etc, are actually deep down neoliberals at heart in spite of their radical veneer? Because that is who I was referring to as the "left" pushers of fake news. However I am all too aware of how some fairly right wing people have been given an easy ride by the liberal media just because they dislike Trump

Occupy Democrats is openly neoliberal, I have never heard of the other one.

 

[Tom A]

Occupy Democrats is openly neoliberal

Really? On the surface they seemed pretty radical, with a name like that you would have thought they would have been to the left of Obama and Hilary. This is what I get for being off Facebook for so long...

 

[DotCommunist]

Occupy Democrats is openly neoliberal, I have never heard of the other one.

other 98% facebook page is all trump this and trump that. with memes

 

[Tom A]

other 98% facebook page is all trump this and trump that. with memes

So again contributing very little to working out how we can actually get out of this mess? At least Another Angry Voice does illustrate some damning facts about the Tory agenda amidst the hyperbole.