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The Ashes 2017-18

Who? And Anderson was the key bowler the last time England won the Ashes in Australia. If any bowler should be dropped it should be Woakes, who, besides the spell under the lights in Adelaide, has been very innocuous.
 
It was 300 not 400 I think. But scoring has increased in general. and this year the scores at the WACA have been pretty high.

403 is a good score, especially from the position they were in, but an extra 50 runs would have been invaluable.
Agree with LBJ. Another 50 would still not be enough. This isn’t going to go well.
 
Australia still have to avoid the follow on. :p

England cannot afford to let Smith run wild and have to be all over him tomorrow if they are to have any chance of winning this imo.
 
England are repeatedly losing the last 4/5/6 wickets for next to nothing in this series, and it's not as if anyone is batting higher than he should in the order. Last 6 wickets lost for 35 this morning. This has become a real problem, and it's causing us to lose the initiative in the space of an hour in games where we've worked hard for a day or more to establish a strong platform. This must be devastating for morale and confidence.
 
Stokes. They're gonna lose this 4-0, this'll be a draw. What a difference he would have made. England lost the Ashes the moment he threw that punch.
 
yes, I've had a real interest having had a real enthusiasm for all this stuff, but if anyone could be said to not have the raw ability to bowl fast, well I think I qualify for that. But having thought a great deal about how to do it, I seem to be picking stuff up. I was in my thirties before I discovered how to throw a ball, after isolating the wrist action, and suddenly I went from someone who could only execute a weak throw to someone who loved throwing hard. But bowling fast is another thing. I've always been fascinated as how some people can do it, and like so many physical skills, get such results from an apparent economy of effort.

My efforts have mainly been in trying to master spin bowling, but on the way I've thought a bit about bowling seam up too, I think I've discovered a few ideas about it and I'm looking forward to trying them out in the nets... it's a bit cold right now. I think that practicing off one pace, with a bag of balls, which is really beneficial for spin, also is useful for pace bowling.

With a really good action, I'm not convinced that pace bowling needs to be devastating on the body, though undoubtedly it can be, my evidence for that is Jeff Thomson who could bowl for long spells and was pretty much injury-free, his shoulder injury coming from a collision.
Wow, ok well I was never really any good at cricket. I could bowl some half decent deliveries at a reasonable pace, but my radar was mostly way off, a bit like Mitchell Johnson in his early days ("he bowls to the left, he bowls to the right, that Mitchell Johnson, his bowling is shite"), the only difference between myself and him is that he went on to become an Ashes legend, and I stayed at shite.

I also believe that it can be possible for a pace bowler to have a successful injury free career, however there are a few things that need to be in sync. Jeff Thomson is a good example but the fact that there have been so few bowlers that have had both pace and longevity at the highest level shows that it's really not that easy. The right combination of talent, coaching (nurture), and the right environment for that talent to blossom, all need to be lined up. By it's very nature express pace bowling does put a not of strain on the body, so it's hardly surprising that so many fast bowlers have injury problems.
 
Swanny on TMS - "Batting Bairstow down with the tail makes him a worse player ergo makes the team weaker, I think the same with Joe Root, making him captain puts extra pressure on him that he doesn't need, thinking about all sorts of things other than just batting and being one of the best players in the world, therefore he's not the prolific run scorer he could be at the minute. Everything England do seems to diminish the team on the whole and I don't like that"

Swanny may have a point, although the additional burden of captaincy appears to have hindered Steve Smith too much. I'm not sure how much of a distraction the captaincy is to Root, but the best way to exorcise that demon is to play a match winning captains innings which should silence any doubters that may be out there. The loss of the captaincy doesn't appeared to have benefited Cooky and the fact that neither Root or Cook have not performed at their normal very high standards has contributed to the Aussies being 2-0 up and likely to regain the Ashes.
 
Or... the aussies have quietly being forming the best attack they've had since 2005 and would beat anyone in their own backyard at the moment. The English are on a hiding to nothing.
 
Yeah but it's not like the Aussies are streets ahead of England, even in their conditions. It just so happens that they have had a full quota of fit quicks just in time for the Ashes. Hazelwood and Lyon have been the most effective. I don't think we've seen the best of Starc and I think he's been a bit patchy. England are not really that far off from winning at least one test match down under with the current personnel. What the Aussies have been able to do well with their bowlers is to turn up the wick and go for the kill and execute at critical times.
 
Yeah but it's not like the Aussies are streets ahead of England, even in their conditions. It just so happens that they have had a full quota of fit quicks just in time for the Ashes.

I know right? If only their players weren't qualitatively better than ours. We'd thrash them.

Hazelwood and Lyon have been the most effective. I don't think we've seen the best of Starc and I think he's been a bit patchy.

Starc tops the bowling averages by miles with 18 wickets at 19 (Lyon has 12, Hazlewood 10)*. Remember, this is halfway through the series. So that's heading for 36 wickets in the series. Remind me what planet you are on.

England are not really that far off from winning at least one test match down under with the current personnel.

And....so what?

What the Aussies have been able to do well with their bowlers is to turn up the wick and go for the kill and execute at critical times.

Like, you mean, do what it takes to win a series? Convincingly?


* Strike Rates.

Starc 36 ("patchy")
Hazlewood 61
Lyon 65
Cummins 71
 
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I know right? If only their players weren't qualitatively better than ours. We'd thrash them.
Qualitatively better? By which measure? I don't think "we" would thrash them, the teams are too closely matched for that.

Starc tops the bowling averages by miles with 18 wickets at 19 (Lyon has 12, Hazlewood 10)*. Remember, this is halfway through the series. So that's heading for 36 wickets in the series. Remind me what planet you are on.
I know right. Just imagine how he'd be doing if he wasn't so "patchy". :p Indeed he is the leading wicket taker and got all those wickets without being at his best and leaking a lot of runs. Must try harder. ;)

And....so what?
Nothing else, that's it, the teams are very close. Things can change "for the better" at any time. The Poms now have 2 centurions, have a 200 run lead and one good early morning session tomorrow could set them up with a nice first innings lead. Of course I'd rather that not happen because I'm rootin' for the Aussies, but England aren't as bad as some of the pessimists make out.
 
Qualitatively better? By which measure?

By the measure of the best captain/batsman, the faster and more devastating bowlers, the stronger tail, the players more suited to the conditions, etc.

Indeed he is the leading wicket taker and got all those wickets without being at his best and leaking a lot of runs.

He hasn't leaked 'a lot' of runs and besides, he's the strike bowler. Runs shouldn't be a priority. Still, Jimmy is only at 2.1 on the economy rate so we 'poms' should be happy right?

The Poms now have 2 centurions, have a 200 run lead and one good early morning session tomorrow could set them up with a nice first innings lead.

Do you take bets?
 
England are still right in this tbf. If the scores were reversed, and Aus had 400 on the board with England 200-3, I'd be backing Aus to win. Unfortunately I do agree with you about the bowling attacks. There are exceptions, but normally the team with the best bowlers wins a series. I hate to say it but the foursome of Starc-Cummins-Hazlewood-Lyon is impressive. I wouldn't switch any of them for any England bowler atm.
 
I think this is the bottom line. There may be valid points about batting order and armbands and headbutts but if the opposition is bowling an average of 5mph + faster than you - you are being outgunned, and that is only somewhat metaphorically.

There's always a great deal of talk about batting order. I never understand it. I think if you took a team, shuffled the recognised batsmen randomly it wouldn't make much odds
 
The stat about being the fastest ever 'average speed' bowling attack is something... On the other hand...England have started to dig in a bit and score. Can The English attack take 20 wickets each time? Doesnt look like it yet?

As for Moen.. Id like to see him score big too, whip through the tail and win us the match, I like him a lot but until he does I think if you have doubts about his current form you have nothing to apologise for when he finds it, just something to be happy about
 
By the measure of the best captain/batsman, the faster and more devastating bowlers, the stronger tail, the players more suited to the conditions, etc.
...and difference isn't that great on those measures, which was my original point. Their bowlers are better in their conditions, we have a better batting line up on paper which hasn't quite clicked into gear yet. Malan and Bairstows score upgrades from what they did in the first 2 tests shows what's possible, and Cook and Root are due big scores and Stoneman looks good too. Englands scoring rate is higher than the Aussies, it's just that they keep getting bowled out by those dastardly quicks. Not sure that the Aussies do have a stronger tail, it's just that the Aussie bowlers are a lot more efficient at delivering a quick decisive coup de grace when they sniff blood and get to the tail whereas our bowlers are more of the slow suffocating type. After the mammoth first innings score England have rattled Smithy a tad and he's not looked as invincible as he did in the first test, of course that could all change if he gets 150+ in a few hours time (and Swanny reckons he's batting with a cigar in his mouth, which sounds ominous). So I still maintain, there's not a lot between the two sides, and things can quickly change so there's room for pom optimism and something for the Barmy Army to cheer.

He hasn't leaked 'a lot' of runs and besides, he's the strike bowler. Runs shouldn't be a priority. Still, Jimmy is only at 2.1 on the economy rate so we 'poms' should be happy right?
Well he's leaked too many for my liking, fortunately he's had good backup support to tie the other end up. It's Broad/Woakes that are underperforming and need to do a bit more of the striking, Jimmy's doing all right. Proper spinner Lyon is outperforming semi-spinner Moeen, no argument there, but there are signs that England might be getting the measure of him.

Do you take bets?
No, but if you're giving money away I'll take it.
 
The stat about being the fastest ever 'average speed' bowling attack is something... On the other hand...England have started to dig in a bit and score. Can The English attack take 20 wickets each time? Doesnt look like it yet?
They had an opportunity to set that up in the first innings of this test if they had scored 500+ which was tantalisingly within reach. 400 doesn't look like it's enough scoreboard pressure give Englands bowlers time to get the 20 wickets they need to win.
 
You have to admire Smith, just doesn't look like he will give his wicket up. How I'd love to bat like that. How I'd hate to bowl against him!
 
Norcross: These are the days that test you...the long hot days when you can't take wickets...
Swann: They are...but the thing is...yes you're saying things like that and that's how the England team are thinking at the moment. I'm looking round, their body language is down, they're not truly believing they're in this game, THEY'RE STILL LEADING IN THIS GAME. They're 60 runs ahead, and you feel down and out...that's how you never win test matches. You've still got the upper hand. Yes Steve Smith is 157 not out, but they're 60 behind. Two wickets and you can get a lead.
Swann: "He's taunting the bowlers, he's playing with mother cricket there...this will come and bite him on the backside one day"
Norcross: "Will it?"
Swann: "Yes, he's extravavantly left it like Courtney Walsh used to do. That's not normal Steve Smith, he's doing it because he's taunting the bowlers. You don't do that"

I've enjoyed Steve Smith's knock until those two balls, I'd definitely be having a word with him if I was out there, you don't do that, you don't take the mickey out the game. That's trying to humiliate the opposition, that's trying to kick someone. I'm not happy with that. I'm sure any of the bowlers walking past will be telling him the same thing. When it's swinging next time in England...where's your extravagant leave now, Mr Smith"
Norcross: 18 months time
Swann: ...that's if he gets there cos he's just taken the mickey out of mother cricket.
Norcross: ...and mother cricket doesn't like that?
Swann: No, she'll bite him on the backside...sorry if I was a bit grumpy just now I don't feel very well,
Norcross: It's the Malteasers isn't it
Swann: I was poorly last nightbut that did annoy me.
Norcross: I got tablets if you want a hand...
Swann: It's like a footballer who goads the opposition spectators, you know full well he's not going to score for another 10 games, it's just desserts.

:D

He complaind about the "doffin of the cap" too. Take your fkin helmet off if you're applauded.
 
400 doesn't look like it's enough scoreboard pressure give Englands bowlers time to get the 20 wickets they need to win.
England don't look like getting 1 wicket today, let alone 20. Would a score of 500 helped the bowlers? 600?

I've been snoozing a bit but haven't seen Ali bowl since his wicket, a ball that turned ever so slightly. With it going down gun barrel straight for the seamers I don't understand that?
 
England don't look like getting 1 wicket today, let alone 20. Would a score of 500 helped the bowlers? 600?
Anderson almost but not quite with a nearly wicket off a no-ball. Might have induced lower order panic, but yes, now the batsmen are well set on a good pitch, and an England win is out of the question now failing something epic like a Botham/Willis effort.
 
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