The Ashes 2021/22

[planetgeli]

I think the problem is much deeper than that. The last truly test class top order batter to come through the England system remains Joe Root. Ten years since England produced a quality batter. In the ten years previous to that, they produced at least half a dozen. This situation has been a decade in the making.

And the pool must be getting smaller, more and more reliant on the private schools.

Your average state school kid born this century won't have seen any live Test cricket on TV. Or had a pitch to play on.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yep. The rot set in in 2005. Its effects were masked for a while by the fact that the crop from immediately before then was very, very good.

 

[Petcha]

From the guardian comments...

Think it's important to start planning for the next Ashes and rest Broad and Anderson until then.

and

I am 78 years old, obese and last batted in the Lancashire League when I was 27, however I have nothing in the diary, am covid negative and prepared to travel to Australia at my own expense to bat first wicket down. `My phone number....

 

[Petcha]

What an absolute shambles. I mean it's actually quite funny in a twisted way. I don't think the Aussie public could even be bothered mocking them anymore. Literally from the first ball of the series to the last ball it was disastrous.

10 for 56

 

[steeplejack]

England batting averages

Player	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
JM Bairstow	2	4	0	194	113	48.50	356	54.49	1	0	0	14	3
JE Root	5	10	0	322	89	32.20	667	48.27	0	3	2	33	0
Z Crawley	3	6	0	166	77	27.66	283	58.65	0	1	0	26	0
DJ Malan	5	10	0	244	82	24.40	632	38.60	0	2	1	33	0
CR Woakes	3	6	0	146	44	24.33	267	54.68	0	0	0	24	1
BA Stokes	5	10	0	236	66	23.60	561	42.06	0	2	0	32	4
JC Buttler	4	8	1	107	39	15.28	390	27.43	0	0	2	12	0
SW Billings	1	2	0	30	29	15.00	57	52.63	0	0	0	6	0
SCJ Broad	3	6	3	42	15	14.00	107	39.25	0	0	1	2	1
RJ Burns	3	6	0	77	34	12.83	178	43.25	0	0	2	12	0
MJ Leach	3	6	2	51	26	12.75	92	55.43	0	0	1	4	1
OJ Pope	3	6	0	67	35	11.16	160	41.87	0	0	0	8	0
MA Wood	4	8	0	86	39	10.75	111	77.47	0	0	2	8	3
H Hameed	4	8	0	80	27	10.00	285	28.07	0	0	2	9	0
JM Anderson	3	6	4	13	5*	6.50	36	36.11	0	0	0	2	0
OE Robinson	4	8	1	38	22	5.42	95	40.00	0	0	4	4	0

six or so of these should never play Test cricket again. I'd rather we fielded the Lions squad in the Windies. Crawley, Billings, Burns, Leach, Pope & Hameed being the obvious candidates. All absolutely shite and miles off it for this level.

Get them to fuck.

 

[Petcha]

I gather Cummins told the organisers to put the champagne away for their celebrations so Khawaja (a muslim) could join in. Again, slightly different to the English sides in the past who have showered their Muslim players in bubbles.

 

[RileyOBlimey]

This Ashes series may not have been the worst but it was as bad as any that England have lost in Australia. Previously there have been major excuses. England had lost more players than Australia to the First World War when they were first whitewashed 5-0 in 1920-1.

Joe Root and England have no excuses - this was as bad a defeat as they have experienced in Australia

By losing 4-0 for a second time, Root has taken the title of being the first England captain to lose two Ashes series in Australia

www.telegraph.co.uk

Having to go back the decimation of WWI to find a worse defeat?

 

[RileyOBlimey]

"That has to be our rock bottom." Alastair Cook

“Feeble” Steve Finn

“Appalling” Mark Butcher

“Gutless” Botham

 

[RileyOBlimey]

“Any notion that there should be no overhaul to the make-up and management of the England cricket team — as you are, Ashley Giles, Chris Silverwood and Joe Root according to some — has been demolished by the nature of this latest defeat in the Ashes. Another utterly abject, humiliating collapse, devoid of any technical competence or fighting spirit, saw the series surrendered by a frightening margin in Hobart.

This hammering, on the back of a desperate year for the Test team, should signal the need for some change. Forget structural change in English domestic cricket for a moment. There is time for that. But a cohort of English first-class cricketers cannot be held accountable for the mistakes made on this tour”

Atherton, not holding back.

 

[paulhackett]

I gather Cummins told the organisers to put the champagne away for their celebrations so Khawaja (a muslim) could join in. Again, slightly different to the English sides in the past who have showered their Muslim players in bubbles.

Khawaja had to miss the bit where alcohol was about so not entirely correct. No different to England winning the ODI world cup

 

[Mumbles274]

Looks like khawaja runs off at the champagne moment for Cummins to call him back after speaking to those behind him

 

[mhendo]

The worst of it is that this Aus team isn't that good really.

Absolutely.

Living in the US, I don't keep up with all of the personnel issues in world cricket the way I did when I lived in Australia. I do follow what's happening with the Aussie team, but I basically have to wait for the series to start to see how the other teams are doing.

At the start of this series, based just on the Australian team, I wasn't especially confident. There's no doubt that, if each player is at or near the top of his game, the Australians can beat anyone, but they haven't all managed to fire together for a while. Despite the 4-0 result, this team certainly does not deserve to be ranked alongside some of the really strong Australian teams of the past.

What I wasn't prepared for was the abject uselessness of the English. As I said earlier in the thread, I really hope you guys can fix your test system, because I love the Ashes, but only if it's actually a contest. To be honest, in some ways I'd prefer to lose an exciting and high-quality series 3-2 than to win 4-0 in the way this series went down.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Absolutely.

Living in the US, I don't keep up with all of the personnel issues in world cricket the way I did when I lived in Australia. I do follow what's happening with the Aussie team, but I basically have to wait for the series to start to see how the other teams are doing.

At the start of this series, based just on the Australian team, I wasn't especially confident. There's no doubt that, if each player is at or near the top of his game, the Australians can beat anyone, but they haven't all managed to fire together for a while. Despite the 4-0 result, this team certainly does not deserve to be ranked alongside some of the really strong Australian teams of the past.

What I wasn't prepared for was the abject uselessness of the English. As I said earlier in the thread, I really hope you guys can fix your test system, because I love the Ashes, but only if it's actually a contest. To be honest, in some ways I'd prefer to lose an exciting and high-quality series 3-2 than to win 4-0 in the way this series went down.

It was horrible. I've been enjoying New Zealand v Bangladesh and SA v India more tbh. Those were real contests.

 

[RileyOBlimey]

Mild mannered fury.

 

[RileyOBlimey]

Agnew’s idea that’s not without merit:

“I am proposing that we take the eight teams from The Hundred, add two more, and create a new first-class competition that replaces the County Championship.

It would not involve the same players as The Hundred, but you could have the same system of a draft. In one move it ensures that the best are playing against the best, it cuts down on the number of games and it is easier to thread first-class cricket throughout the summer.”

'Time to replace the County Championship'

After England's latest Ashes humbling in Australia, Jonathan Agnew says the County Championship should be replaced in order to save the England Test team.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[RileyOBlimey]

Although proposing a FC version of the Hundred will likely cause a blood pressure to rise dangerously with some here

 

[RileyOBlimey]

The fact is talent is spread too thinly in the current FC system. We need our best talent duking it out more often. Imran Khan understood this and has created a 6 team FC tournament in Pakistan that reflects the 6 team FC systems in Aus and NZ. We should do similar.

 

[RileyOBlimey]

Silverwood insists England players back him and points finger at county game | England cricket team | The Guardian

Chris Silverwood has been given no assurances over his future as England head coach but insists he retains the support of his players despite their Ashes thrashing

amp.theguardian.com

Yes Chris, the failure is all county cricket’s fault and you made no fuck ups and didn’t nurture a shambles of a series.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Agnew’s idea that’s not without merit:

“I am proposing that we take the eight teams from The Hundred, add two more, and create a new first-class competition that replaces the County Championship.

It would not involve the same players as The Hundred, but you could have the same system of a draft. In one move it ensures that the best are playing against the best, it cuts down on the number of games and it is easier to thread first-class cricket throughout the summer.”

'Time to replace the County Championship'

After England's latest Ashes humbling in Australia, Jonathan Agnew says the County Championship should be replaced in order to save the England Test team.

www.bbc.co.uk

Bit like the ten teams in the First Division of the CC, then?

I think the county system and number of teams is a bit of a red herring. The Ranji Trophy has, what, 30-odd teams, but not all equal in standing, bit like the CC's two divisions. Occasionally a star test player comes out of one of the lesser Indian first class teams, though, just as the likes of Northants occasionally produce a star player.

I think the solution is much easier than this. It's what we had 20 years ago: two divisions of nine, playing each other twice, so 16 games a season, with games throughout the season, not elbowed out into either end of it, two-up two-down promotion/relegation. Coupled with significant financial incentives for counties to produce international players - meaning that Northants, eg, got money for the success of Swann even after he had moved away to the richer county of Notts.

Simples.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That's not the only thing that's wrong, of course. Getting live test cricket back on free to air is also key. And the counties all need to be encouraged to abandon the various private school partnerships they have running. The likes of Worcs and Lancs pay for kids to go to private school - Hameed was one. There has to be a different way to do things as, aside from anything else, this way just doesn't produce the goods. Meanwhile a vibrant club cricket system in the North East has produced a string of good players. Club cricket needs supporting, not private schools.

Eighteen centres of excellence spread right across the country, and all of them deeply engaged with their local club systems, including giving clubs money for players they end up signing.

 

[RileyOBlimey]

Bit like the ten teams in the First Division of the CC, then?

I think the county system and number of teams is a bit of a red herring. The Ranji Trophy has, what, 30-odd teams, but not all equal in standing, bit like the CC's two divisions. Occasionally a star test player comes out of one of the lesser Indian first class teams, though, just as the likes of Northants occasionally produce a star player.

I think the solution is much easier than this. It's what we had 20 years ago: two divisions of nine, playing each other twice, so 16 games a season, with games throughout the season, not elbowed out into either end of it, two-up two-down promotion/relegation. Coupled with significant financial incentives for counties to produce international players - meaning that Northants, eg, got money for the success of Swann even after he had moved away to the richer county of Notts.

Simples.

That does not address one of the key issues - top players competing against other top players. The 18 county system currently spreads talent too thinly which dilutes the quality of the top tier competition and the star players. What we end up with is a few big fish in a series of small ponds resulting in flattering stats that cannot translate to international test standards. If the talent was concentrated within 6 teams that fought each other over june, july and august on good wickets that demanded pace we would likely reap the rewards.

FYI referencing India is not really valid as that country is cricket mad. It's their No.1, No. 2 & No. 3 sport in a country of 1 billion people.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Referencing Australia isn't valid either in that case. It's a huge country geographically, with most of its population concentrated around a handful of big cities. That's why there are only six teams in the Sheffield Shield.

The fact that England supports 18 professional teams should be seen as a strength, not a weakness. A resource to be properly maximised, not a liability.

 

[RileyOBlimey]

That's not the only thing that's wrong, of course. Getting live test cricket back on free to air is also key.

Absolutely and I would go one stage further; a 6 team FC tournament that is marketed well and free to air would also be something to behold.

 

[RileyOBlimey]

Referencing Australia isn't valid either in that case. It's a huge country geographically, with most of its population concentrated around a handful of big cities. That's why there are only six teams in the Sheffield Shield.

Now you're being daft.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Now you're being daft.

I'm explaining important differences. Australia has five cities that are bigger than Birmingham: Perth, Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane. Add in the relative backwater of Tasmania (which was a later addition to the SS) and you have most of the country's population covered.

By contrast, the UK (and in this case, specifically England and Wales) has a larger population in a much smaller area, but spread out much more diffusely across medium-sized cities and towns. And the 18 counties cover that area pretty effectively. Indeed some of the most vibrant and best-supported counties are based in relatively small towns with a very strong cricketing culture, such as Taunton.

 

[Ted Striker]

I'm explaining important differences. Australia has five cities that are bigger than Birmingham: Perth, Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane. Add in the relative backwater of Tasmania (which was a later addition to the SS) and you have most of the country's population covered.

By contrast, the UK (and in this case, specifically England and Wales) has a larger population in a much smaller area, but spread out much more diffusely across medium-sized cities and towns. And the 18 counties cover that area pretty effectively. Indeed some of the most vibrant and best-supported counties are based in relatively small towns with a very strong cricketing culture, such as Taunton.

The combination of Australia and Taunton both producing strongly supported Cricket teams and infrastructure perhaps not unrelated to the overarching characteristic they have in common in that there is - in relative terms - fuck all else to do there

 

[RileyOBlimey]

Pope felt so short on support that at one stage it is understood he gave serious consideration to flying out his Surrey coach Vikram Solanki, who is expected to leave the county for the IPL, to work with him, off his own bat.

Ashes tour from hell demands changes throughout English cricket

First impressions last, but so does how you say goodbye. This dismal Ashes series ended just as it started, six very long weeks ago, with an England batter showing his stumps to an Australian, who duly knocked them over for an embarrassing golden duck.

www.standard.co.uk

The stories now coming out of the England camp really do shine a line on the total failure of leadership.

 

[RileyOBlimey]

If you haven't seen - Fat-shaming-gate...

"One England cricketer refused to take part in a 'skin-fold' test - a way of measuring body fat percentage - during the 4-0 humiliation in Australia this winter, accusing the staff of fat-shaming"

England cricketer accused coaching staff of fat-shaming as shambolic Ashes tour prep laid bare | JOE.co.uk

One England cricketer refused to take part in a 'skin-fold' test - a way of measuring body fat percentage - during the 4-0 humiliation in Australia

www.joe.co.uk

Bairstow's chubbed up recently and Robinson has a drinker's physique, could be either or neither.

 

[planetgeli]

If you haven't seen - Fat-shaming-gate...

"One England cricketer refused to take part in a 'skin-fold' test - a way of measuring body fat percentage - during the 4-0 humiliation in Australia this winter, accusing the staff of fat-shaming"

England cricketer accused coaching staff of fat-shaming as shambolic Ashes tour prep laid bare | JOE.co.uk

One England cricketer refused to take part in a 'skin-fold' test - a way of measuring body fat percentage - during the 4-0 humiliation in Australia

www.joe.co.uk

Bairstow's chubbed up recently and Robinson has a drinker's physique.

And Robinson was the one publicly thrown under a bus by Jon Lewis for 'fitness issues'.

That is so not the way to handle Robinson. He may well already have told Lewis to go fuck himself.

 

[RileyOBlimey]

Root: It's not my job to captain, "it's not a dictatorship".
Silverwood: It's all the county's fault, not mine.
Giles: Our standards are too high, this shit show would be OK in the 90s.
Thorpe - batting coach: poor batting is batters fault and nowt to do with me.
Lewis - bowling coach: poor fitness of bowlers is the bowlers fault and nowt to do with me.