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Operation pillar of cloud. Israeli assault on Gaza

What is the likelyhood that Israel will stand down and not go in on the ground? They are moving their tanks, APCs and bulldozers to the border, they are mobilising their reserve soldiers, there seems no let up in the missiles coming from Gaza and if we are to believe the posts at the start of this episode the Palestinian Hamas leader they assasinated was in advanced peace talks with Israel yet still they killed him. If that last bit is true, then they don't really want peace, except perhaps wholly on their terms.
 
frogwoman said:
it would be a masked IDF person who had a cover identity as a rich israeli crusading out to beat upon the palestinians given that batmans MO is to beat upon those weaker than him
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That's Binyamin Netanyahu, avenging the death of his brother Jonathan, isn't it? :(
 
weltweit said:
What is the likelyhood that Israel will stand down and not go in on the ground?
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A greater chance than impressions suggest. Much as with their repeated talk in the press of bombing Iran for years now, it can be difficult to separate the real desire to act from the desire to threaten in a manner which achieves some objectives.
 
dylans said:
Despite talk of negotiations I still think a ground invasion is inevitable and soon and for the following reasons.

For all the talk of Iran and elections the bottom line is this conflict has been initiated by Israel in order to degrade Hamas' increased missile capacity. This is what this is about. In particular to destroy Hamas' possession of Fajr 5 missiles.

It's as simple as that.
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Hmm. Very short-term thinking IMHO. When the missiles are used up/destroyed/captured the flow of smuggled weapons into Gaza won't stop. In fact it will get grow because instability in the region and increasing factionalism and Palestinian casualties means more donations of weapons and money and more porous borders. So if you're an Israeli the only way to discourage Iran from allowing the export of more missiles is to give them a very costly punishment, i.e. airstrikes on their expensive, prestigious nuclear plants. Which also protects Israel from the nuclear threat for a few years.
 
elbows said:
it can be difficult to separate the real desire to act from the desire to threaten in a manner which achieves some objectives.
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Indeed. That's a very good point wrt Israel. They like to give the impression that they would be prepared to destroy themselves rather than be invaded. Hard to tell how serious a threat that is.
 
The Guardian today has an article on how the PA security are arresting and beating demonstrators. I'm sure Israel will thank them by giving them some more settlers.


Fresh clashes erupted in the West Bank on Sunday as Palestinian youths threw rocks at Israeli soldiers, who responded with teargas. But anger in the West Bank has not only been directed at Israel: many also blame the Palestinian Authority for failing to take action over the Gaza offensive and for co-operating with the Israeli security forces against protesters.

Abu Helal was detained not by the Israeli army but by Palestinian security forces, who took him to a Ramallah police station for questioning. "They said, 'You're making a problem for the [Palestinian Authority]'," Abu Helal said. "They told me, 'Go make a demonstration in Ramallah'."
According to Shawan Jabarin, the director of Al-Haq, a Palestinian human rights group, Palestinian security forces often suppress protests against Israel in the West Bank.
"They stop them, arrest them, beat them sometimes," Jabarin said.
On Sunday, he said, Palestinian security forces prevented protesters from reaching Israel's Al Jalame checkpoint near Jenin. "The Palestinian police have become a guard for Israel's interests," he said.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/18/west-bank-palestinian-gaza-abbas
 
weltweit said:
What is the likelyhood that Israel will stand down and not go in on the ground? They are moving their tanks, APCs and bulldozers to the border, they are mobilising their reserve soldiers, there seems no let up in the missiles coming from Gaza and if we are to believe the posts at the start of this episode the Palestinian Hamas leader they assasinated was in advanced peace talks with Israel yet still they killed him. If that last bit is true, then they don't really want peace, except perhaps wholly on their terms.
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Well done weltweit. You win a biscuit. ;)
 
Frumious B. said:
Hmm. Very short-term thinking IMHO. When the missiles are used up/destroyed/captured the flow of smuggled weapons into Gaza won't stop. In fact it will get grow because instability in the region and increasing factionalism and Palestinian casualties means more donations of weapons and money and more porous borders. So if you're an Israeli the only way to discourage Iran from allowing the export of more missiles is to give them a very costly punishment, i.e. airstrikes on their expensive, prestigious nuclear plants. Which also protects Israel from the nuclear threat for a few years.
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Oh absolutely. I couldn't agree more.

Both Hamas and Hezbollah emerged stronger after their wars with Israel.This is the nature of guerilla warfare, particularly those with a popular mass base amongst their populations.. But I think this thinking, this belief that a purely military strategy can crush the resistance, is Netanyahu's and the Likud hawks and has been for a long time. (despite the long history of this conflict demonstrating the opposite) Their reasoning is not that cast lead failed but that they didn't hit Gaza hard enough.
 
dylans said:
The Guardian today has an article on how the PA security are arresting and beating demonstrators. I'm sure Israel will thank them by giving them some more settlers.
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Its fair enough to point out the disgraceful failings of the PA.

But that should not obscure the fact that Israel is not pleased about their UN plans and at this point I cannot rule out stirring up the West Bank as being at least part of the Israeli agenda when it comes to the timing of these attacks on Gaza. The timing is right, given that its only suppsed to be 11 days till the PA ask the UN for observer state status.
 
elbows said:
Its fair enough to point out the disgraceful failings of the PA.

But that should not obscure the fact that Israel is not pleased about their UN plans and at this point I cannot rule out stirring up the West Bank as being at least part of the Israeli agenda when it comes to the timing of these attacks on Gaza. The timing is right, given that its only suppsed to be 11 days till the PA ask the UN for observer state status.
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Who cares. I mean who gives a shit about Abbas's stupid UN bid. Its his pet project because he doesn't have the balls to resist the relentless colonisation of the West Bank. He gets to strut around the UN looking all important but even if it was accepted, UN recognition would not change the facts on the ground one tiny little bit. Its irrelevent. if Israel want to provoke a new intifada in order to scupper the bid, good. Give them what they want and launch a new intifada. If the Palestinians have to choose between resistance and no UN recognition for Abbas' fake state or collaboration in return for a meaningless gesture and a few fancy symbols on the wall of Abbas office, they should choose resistance.

Abbas should stop appeasing Israel, stop doing Israel's dirty work by policing the occupation for the Zionists and throw the stinking Oslo accords back in Israels face. They want an occupation let them run it themselves. That way at least the kids will know who to throw stones at
 
dylans said:
Who cares. I mean who gives a shit about Abbas's stupid UN bid. Its his pet project because he doesn't have the balls to resist the relentless colonisation of the West Bank. He gets to strut around the UN looking all important but even if it was accepted, UN recognition would not change the facts on the ground one tiny little bit. Its irrelevent.
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It isnt just about facts on the ground though, its about international perceptions, isolation, legitimacy etc.

I dont rate it too highly myself but I dont consider it utterly worthless either. This is mostly because none of the other options, including violent struggle, have managed to achieve good results either. So so they should try whatever they can.
 
teqniq said:
haha well no, see elbows post above though it has been posted on that site recently. I should have checked back to youtube. :facepalm:

E2A I see from elbow's last post that youtube maybe wouldn't have helped me much

this however is recent and worth a read imo:

Israeli psychopath
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Cheers, thought I'd ask, I'm seeing a lot of people posting up stuff from 2008/9 and passing it off as from this month...
 
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdC...=R1&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
My god... how do you begin to try and broker any kind of peace with attitudes like this

THE DESIRE to prevent harm to innocent civilians in Gaza will ultimately lead to harming the truly innocent: the residents of southern Israel. The residents of Gaza are not innocent, they elected Hamas. The Gazans aren’t hostages; they chose this freely, and must live with the consequences... We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too. There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing. Then they’d really call for a ceasefire.
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elbows said:
I'd rather they said it publicly rather than just privately, that way people can judge their mindset more effectively.
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I agree but still feel :mad: It's like a very bad comedy, as if they are seriously wanting others to jump up and 'hold them back', it's psychotic!
 
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