Are you living on a different planet?
knife violence and murders among youth
- Thread starter DotCommunist
- Start date
Much better that communities are being shit on from within than the police to be seen as the enemy.
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Maybe the police could work WITH those communities in getting this shit sorted? It’s like there’s a decision between no policing or racial profiling stop and search with no sensible options in between.
stuff_it
Too skool for cool
Happy well fed teenagers who have a wealth of excellent life opportunities ahead of them don't need anyone working with the police to stop them getting stabby.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
As I posted on another thread, it is also important not to blow this out of proportion. London isn't in some kind of recently started meltdown. Yes there are problems, but they won't and can't be solved overnight, and there are dangers to knee-jerk reactions, especially any involving giving the Met new powers or resources. Let's not forget that the Met are also part of the problem in London. Have been for a long time.
I agree with this, my politics are geared towards it, but there’s nothing that can be done towards that under the present political regime. All we can do is pressurise the system into changing whilst pressurising those paid to protect us into doing what they’re paid to do.
Community action would be better still but a lot of people are simply too frightened to take these lumpen parasites on.
MrSki
Who am I to say you're wrong
Where are these working class communities that you speak of? Which part of London is a wc community? It is all a bit mixed up these days. Are you referring to council estates? If so why not just say so? In the mid/late 80s I lived on the Wellington Estate in Bethnal Green & the Police would only ever attend in a riot van. That was 30 years ago.
There are not many avenues in Chelsea or Kensington so I don't really get your point.
What is your obsession with working class come from? Should not everyone be treated equally both in the eye of the law & how they are policed?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
And here I'm afraid I'm rather pessimistic. As society changes to become even more unequal and as social mobility continues to decline, we are likely to see more violent crime, not less. Calling for tougher policing in isolation is worse than pointless. Calling people lumpen parasites doesn't help much either. Dehumanising 'gang members' doesn't help.
The analysis being that this type of offending is simply managed by keeping it in less desirable areas rather than tackled. The analysis runs deeper but I can’t be arsed going into it with people who can’t even recognise that simple point and agree on it.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You post for the benefit of the whole thread, not just single posters. I'd be interested to see this analysis. Can you give some specific examples? Thing is, where this is true, direct police intervention becomes even less viable an option, even if that's what you want.
Do you accept the point about London being very mixed up? Even where you have a particularly notorious estate, it is very often literally just across the street from somewhere very different.
There’s plenty of stuff written about the CIA deliberately introducing crack to black communities to suppress them organising against their conditions. This stuff simply exists as it benefits capital that it does. So surely the way out is to apply pressure to those involved along with pressure to those taking taxes as the service aimed to protect?
I’m not sure at all what your answer is. More money? Well yeah.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The police don't protect people living in the worst estates, though. Or even people living in ok estates. They never have. That seems a rather naive thought, tbh.
My answer as I said is a rather pessimistic one probably in your eyes, namely that there is no answer if you don't change society. And you tackle crime more effectively by opening a local youth centre than you do by sending out more coppers onto the streets. Currently youth centres are closing all around the city. Council grants are being slashed. That's happening now - 'stop doing that' would be the first thing I'd say to the authorities if they were to ask me about youth crime.
My answer as I said is a rather pessimistic one probably in your eyes, namely that there is no answer if you don't change society. And you tackle crime more effectively by opening a local youth centre than you do by sending out more coppers onto the streets. Currently youth centres are closing all around the city. Council grants are being slashed. That's happening now - 'stop doing that' would be the first thing I'd say to the authorities if they were to ask me about youth crime.
MrSki
Who am I to say you're wrong
Or the use of the stupid fucking word Lumpen?
When I lived in Loughborough Road in Brixton from 1996 till 2012 it was a working class/unworking area. Now if I return it has £500K flats intermingled. It is now an area that is mixed with the poor & the rich. When I lived there gun crime was a problem but that seems to have been overtaken with kids & knives. When guns were a problem there were less fights in the pub but for the wrong reasons. Is this a WC community or has it been tainted by wealth?
PS Please stop using the word " Lumpen" it does you no favours.
I said the same thing several posts ago and got a demand to define what I meant (not from you) and now you apparently agree with me.
Ok so your answer is that there isn’t an answer. I’ve given a solution but you simply don’t like it.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
No, I think there is an answer, just not your one.
As I said in my edit (sorry, I edited to add), 'stop closing youth clubs' would be first thing on my list of things to do.I most certainly do have a word for parasitical cunts who make the lives of working class people a misery by dealing drugs to their kids and/or murdering them.
I couldn’t give a fuck what you think tbh.
No, I think there is an answer, just not your one.
I’d say job prospects more important than youth clubs, you sound like Boris Johnson.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Of course. But you can stop closing youth clubs tomorrow. I said 'first thing' on my list, not only thing. And youth services budgets have been slashed right across London. And I mean slashed - the one I know about is Chiswick, which has been cut from £800k a year to £200k. Centres are closing because of it. This can be stopped and reversed right now - first thing tomorrow morning, this could be stopped.
Nothing like Boris Johnson, btw. He did nothing to increase funding for youth services.
This shit was happening ten years ago too. And longer.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It is accelerating. This is the real meaning of 'austerity'. But yes, these kinds of neglect have long been happening.
I agree it’s a systemic issue. But let’s not deny agency.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I'm not denying agency. Someone stabs someone, I want them to be caught and locked up. I would also not want to give up on them as wronguns for good, mind, but caught and locked up would have to be the first step. But that is of course after the fact. We're discussing prevention here, no? And prevention involves systemic issues.
MrSki
Who am I to say you're wrong
Well I am surprised.
I think you will find that it is working class people selling drugs to other working class people & murdering them that is the problem. Are the stabbers all posh boys? No. Admit it is working class children stabbing other working class children that is the current problem. Or maybe it is people stabbing people regardless of which class they might think they are from.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Because housing is for cunts to make money out of, not for people to live in.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
To you? I imagine so yes.
Humberto
minor kerfuffles ensue
I suppose children stabbing eachother is a price worth paying for some. They may not be deliberate about it but I still believe its true. So you live in what are basically poor quality housing, which are replaced with housing for super rich property speculators and landlords. Its always the worst off isn't it? I mean they are not 'really' important or actual citizens. Tolerated. Inequality is poisonous. Its obscene in London. The richest, living next to the poorest.
London is an old city. Nowadays its a playground for the rich. Worthlessness, unemployment, and yes extreme violence are the dark side of this 'happy scheme'. Where is the hope or fairness? I'm not scared for myself, I'm scared for them. They DO try - fucking hard - yet they are always stamped down. The ills of society are most keenly felt by the poorest and least welcome. Then what, they are vilified and targeted for daring to exist?
Give everyone a future, a wage, a voice, a stake and we might get somewhere. Because, quite simply the opposite is becoming the reality for more and more working class youth. If youth services (one spec in a larger picture) are slashed, its not a police matter, its a political matter. A matter of life and death, of justice, as we can see. The article linked to in the opening post is very perceptive, read that and tell me we need tougher policing.
Don't give in to the bourgeois 'lock em up',' be more decent', false arguments. That's not the problem. One problem is leaving children a hopeless task to survive whilst others make millions out of nothing. The government is not on their side. In other words; why aren't these kids, their families, their communities wholly in focus and treated as an emergency task, to be put right? Because of racism? Certainly. No doubt in my mind. But also very significant is the system of massive inequality, which in London is severe and saddening.
London is an old city. Nowadays its a playground for the rich. Worthlessness, unemployment, and yes extreme violence are the dark side of this 'happy scheme'. Where is the hope or fairness? I'm not scared for myself, I'm scared for them. They DO try - fucking hard - yet they are always stamped down. The ills of society are most keenly felt by the poorest and least welcome. Then what, they are vilified and targeted for daring to exist?
Give everyone a future, a wage, a voice, a stake and we might get somewhere. Because, quite simply the opposite is becoming the reality for more and more working class youth. If youth services (one spec in a larger picture) are slashed, its not a police matter, its a political matter. A matter of life and death, of justice, as we can see. The article linked to in the opening post is very perceptive, read that and tell me we need tougher policing.
Don't give in to the bourgeois 'lock em up',' be more decent', false arguments. That's not the problem. One problem is leaving children a hopeless task to survive whilst others make millions out of nothing. The government is not on their side. In other words; why aren't these kids, their families, their communities wholly in focus and treated as an emergency task, to be put right? Because of racism? Certainly. No doubt in my mind. But also very significant is the system of massive inequality, which in London is severe and saddening.
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Much of this violence in London is gang and drug related .It's also black on black.
For some black families dad legs it leaving mum to bring up the kids on her own.Does this fuel ultra masculine attitudes where slights are exaggerated and lead to murder.
The gang becomes the family and drugs equals a very good income.Drill videos wind both sides up.
Glasgow has made progress by forcing the gangs to talk to each other and former gang members to mentor.
For some black families dad legs it leaving mum to bring up the kids on her own.Does this fuel ultra masculine attitudes where slights are exaggerated and lead to murder.
The gang becomes the family and drugs equals a very good income.Drill videos wind both sides up.
Glasgow has made progress by forcing the gangs to talk to each other and former gang members to mentor.
stuff_it
Too skool for cool
Maybe if they didn't have armed guards or a big gate things would be different...
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