Knife crime, what's to be done?

[Flavour]

It is notable how the music changed between 2006 and 2016 in London. I mean if you did a quantitative analysis of the lyrics in the grime records of 2006 and the drill from 2016 onwards, there are obviously a lot of similarities in terms of the materialism, misogyny and aggression, but 2006 era grime rarely posited the areas of origin of the rappers as a territory to be defended with violence from "ops" - opposition.

This sort of highly defensive territorial language and open discussion and glorification of stabbing / getting one over on the ops from some other area of London (postcode wars), I don't really know when this became a thing on the street/gang level but there was a certainly a shift in the music which probably both reflected and contributed to this tendency, one which benefits the system of the state in reality, as the people involved are more focused on fighting each other than criticizing the structures of oppression. Not saying grime was leftist or anything, it most certainly wasn't. But there were some occasional glimpses of social commentary that seem harder to find in the drill which followed and supplanted it

 

[Smokeandsteam]

The idea that people just "choose" things which have nothing to do with any external circumstances? Now that is liberal wank.

Ah, okay. We can close the thread and the debate then.

Everything is completely determined by external conditions.

Free passes all round for the gangsters and other anti social detritus. They’re the victims. I’m just grateful I haven’t been exposed to capitalism or been working class, otherwise I’d be knifing other working class people on an hourly basis no doubt.

 

[maomao]

I don't agree with this. If you're carrying a knife or a gun, you're carrying it for the sole purpose of killing somebody (unless the knife is for work, obvs). Those numbers should be doubled to 10 and 20, you woolly liberal.

Among other reasons kids carry knives for intimidation, status and self-defence. Only a tiny proportion of knives carried by young people end up being used for violence. Misguided certainly but not out of intent to kill.

 

[_Russ_]

Perhaps Parents could step up to the plate and be more forthcoming in providing guidance to their children, there has been a highly visible trend of the power balance shifting to the child's side for some time now and It needs to be recognised as a factor here.
Children require guidance as much as they require nurturing and in its absence at home will look elsewhere.

 

[LakieLady]

It's a weird mix, theres zombie knives banned and yet I can buy a petrol chainsaw with next day delivery?

Pretty hard to conceal a chainsaw about your person though, so probably not the weapon of choice for young wannabe gangsters.

 

[purenarcotic]

Complex problems require complex solutions. Glasgow has had huge success in tackling knife crime by treating it as a public health issue, viewing it as a disease which affects communities. This blog provides a good summary:

A radical approach to tackling knife crime in Scotland – Civil Service Quarterly

Expert guidance for civil servants

quarterly.blog.gov.uk

It’s not perfect, of course, but should be given serious attention. Also worth noting that in all major London hospitals, workers from Redthread are based (they do work in other parts of the country I think but can’t remember off the top of my head). They are a bit like the ‘navigators’ outlined in the blog; they try to get to the young people when they’re in A&E and offer support to prevent further violence.

The Reith lectures with Dr Gwen Adshead may also be of interest. She is a forensic psychotherapist who has spent her whole working life working with those who have committed violent offences. Her book is also excellent.

 

[RevolutionSound]

Ah, okay. We can close the thread and the debate then.

Everything is completely determined by external conditions.

Free passes all round for the gangsters and other anti social detritus. They’re the victims. I’m just grateful I haven’t been exposed to capitalism or been working class, otherwise I’d be knifing other working class people on an hourly basis no doubt.

A straw man. You're usually better than that.

 

[Rob Ray]

Perhaps Parents could step up to the plate and be more forthcoming in providing guidance to their children, there has been a highly visible trend of the power balance shifting to the child's side for some time now and It needs to be recognised as a factor here.
Children require guidance as much as they require nurturing and in its absence at home will look elsewhere.

You're a genius! How did no-one think of engaging with the parents before?? It's like, work on a social basis ... now what should we call that? Maybe someone should talk to the government about finding sufficient funds to do it properly.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

A straw man. You're usually better than that.

No .I’ve argued that external factors and conditions play a role, as does peer pressure and grooming. But also that a) at some point these cunts have to take responsibility for their own actions and choices, b) read this thread back, post after post is about the perps and their ‘struggle’, much less is about the victims and the effect on communities and class confidence where the stabbers operate and seek to assert control and c) too much of the debate is either wet liberal hand wringing (as often typified on this thread) or is ‘lock em up’ appeals to a disinterested state and cops who just see surplus pools of population offing each other.

 

[purenarcotic]

No .I’ve argued that external factors and conditions play a role, as does peer pressure and grooming. But also that a) at some point these cunts have to take responsibility for their own actions and choices, b) read this thread back, post after post is about the perps and their ‘struggle’, much less is about the victims and the effect on communities and class confidence where the stabbers operate and seek to assert control and c) too much of the debate is either wet liberal hand wringing (as often typified on this thread) or is ‘lock em up’ appeals to a disinterested state and cops who just see surplus pools of population offing each other.

Is it not possible that someone can be both a victim and a perpetrator? Is it always as black and white as x is perp and y is victim (sometimes it is of course). Is it helpful to label 14 or 15 year old children in this way? I’m not so sure it is.

You are right of course that there has to be some accountability. How do you think that can be achieved?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Is it not possible that someone can be both a victim and a perpetrator? Is it always as black and white as x is perp and y is victim (sometimes it is of course). Is it helpful to label 14 or 15 year old children in this way?

Yes, it is possible.

You are right of course that there has to be some accountability. How do you think that can be achieved?

The accountability is to the community and people they live amongst and operate around.

Ensuring that accountability would be achieved by communities finding the confidence and resources necessary to reclaim the space where they and their families and friends live and collectively deciding what is and what is not tolerated. Kids knifing other kids would clearly be in the latter category.

Expecting the state/cops or middle class liberals to effectively intervene is delusional as the current state of affairs tells us

 

[Brainaddict]

I disagree. It hasn't been tried.

Ever heard of the United States? And its enormous prison population? And how that has ended violent crime there...oh.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Among other reasons kids carry knives for intimidation, status and self-defence. Only a tiny proportion of knives carried by young people end up being used for violence. Misguided certainly but not out of intent to kill.

These are the same reasons American carry guns. They obviously don't all want to kill people, and most don't, but people are getting killed, with monotonous regularity.

 

[Brainaddict]

Not loads of talk on here of parental neglect, or of the reasons for that. It shouldn't be about blaming the parents. There's intergenerational trauma, there's illness, shift work, mental illness, alcoholism. No parent wants to neglect their kids but many are. They then aren't getting the support that would help them be better parents - quite the opposite, they get benefit cuts and stigmatisation.

There was some experiment they did with troubled families where they calculated all the resources they were putting in with benefits, social workers, police - and then more or less gave that money in cash to the families. It made an enormous difference. This was that Hilary Cottam book, Radical Help. My politics wouldn't quite align with hers, but she had better ideas than many of those listed above.