Knife crime, what's to be done?

[nightowl]

Something from the IWCA on crime from the archived website that was posted today.

"Why is the left soft on crime and why is it a problem?"

Independent Working Class Association - national website

What the left doesn't seem to understand is that dealing harshly with crime doesn't just have to be one of the right-wing's calling cards. People are sick and tired of having their lives blighted by crime and Labour's inaction on this is one of the things that is very likely going to drive even more voters into the hands of Farage and co at the next election.
I absolutely hear the need to deal with social issues to stop young people being driven towards gangs etc but this is a long-term aspiration. In the meantime these young hooligans are still going to be out there killing. Get them off the streets. Start making harsh examples of them that might put the fear of god into others.

 

[Winot]

I seem to remember that a Mr T Blair had a catchphrase about that.

 

[Pickman's model]

I seem to remember that a Mr T Blair had a catchphrase about that.

Yeh he was really on the left

 

[Pickman's model]

What the left doesn't seem to understand is that dealing harshly with crime doesn't just have to be one of the right-wing's calling cards. People are sick and tired of having their lives blighted by crime and Labour's inaction on this is one of the things that is very likely going to drive even more voters into the hands of Farage and co at the next election.
I absolutely hear the need to deal with social issues to stop young people being driven towards gangs etc but this is a long-term aspiration. In the meantime these young hooligans are still going to be out there killing. Get them off the streets. Start making harsh examples of them that might put the fear of god into others.

Labour isn't on the left, as we have discussed many times over the years. And while refuk may be tough on crime they're not going to address other issues in any sort of useful way

 

[planetgeli]

What the left doesn't seem to understand is that dealing harshly with crime doesn't just have to be one of the right-wing's calling cards. People are sick and tired of having their lives blighted by crime and Labour's inaction on this is one of the things that is very likely going to drive even more voters into the hands of Farage and co at the next election.
I absolutely hear the need to deal with social issues to stop young people being driven towards gangs etc but this is a long-term aspiration. In the meantime these young hooligans are still going to be out there killing. Get them off the streets. Start making harsh examples of them that might put the fear of god into others.

Fuck me doesn't take much for some to look back at Thatcherism with rose-tints does it? You are Willie Whitelaw, it is 1980, and I claim my 5 pounds.

Something like short, sharp shock you mean? Doesn't work. And longer sentences do not put the 'fear of God' into most gang members.

'Sadistic, brutal concentration camps': Abuse victims describe reality of youth detention centres under Thatcher

Former inmates say their lives spiralled into violence and addiction because of trauma from ‘sadistic, brutal concentration camps’

www.independent.co.uk

 

[emanymton]

What the left doesn't seem to understand is that dealing harshly with crime doesn't just have to be one of the right-wing's calling cards. People are sick and tired of having their lives blighted by crime and Labour's inaction on this is one of the things that is very likely going to drive even more voters into the hands of Farage and co at the next election.
I absolutely hear the need to deal with social issues to stop young people being driven towards gangs etc but this is a long-term aspiration. In the meantime these young hooligans are still going to be out there killing. Get them off the streets. Start making harsh examples of them that might put the fear of god into others.

The thing is do we want to focus on reducing crime or punishing those who commit crime or both?

Harsher punishment doesn't really have a impact on the amount of crime.

Also worth remembering that the UK crime rate is pretty low at the moment anyway.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

What the left doesn't seem to understand is that dealing harshly with crime doesn't just have to be one of the right-wing's calling cards.

As the IWCA article, and its wider approach to anti social behaviour, demonstrates some of us do understand the need to deal with it.

People are sick and tired of having their lives blighted by crime and Labour's inaction on this is one of the things that is very likely going to drive even more voters into the hands of Farage and co at the next election.
I absolutely hear the need to deal with social issues to stop young people being driven towards gangs etc but this is a long-term aspiration. In the meantime these young hooligans are still going to be out there killing. Get them off the streets. Start making harsh examples of them that might put the fear of god into others.

However, your appeal to Labour (and Reform for that matter) to introduce harsher jail terms isn't going to work.

First, there is no motivation for the state to reduce crime as long as its predominantly working class on working class violence. They could not care less about the lost and ruined lives of the poor. They are happy to turn a blind eye to what happens in the dying towns and places where surplus pool of population are clustered: see the child rape scandal.

Instead, their priority will be contain crime away from retail areas and middle class districts where they live and to make profit from the carceral system through private prisons etc.

Secondly, the 'short, sharp, shock' approach has been tried and failed.

So, whilst I agree that people are sick of it they also cannot outsource tackling the problem to the state or the cops. Helping communities to find the confidence and mobilise the necessary resources to establish what will and what will not be tolerated on their streets is the only viable solution.

 

[nogojones]

What the left doesn't seem to understand is that dealing harshly with crime doesn't just have to be one of the right-wing's calling cards. People are sick and tired of having their lives blighted by crime and Labour's inaction on this is one of the things that is very likely going to drive even more voters into the hands of Farage and co at the next election.
I absolutely hear the need to deal with social issues to stop young people being driven towards gangs etc but this is a long-term aspiration. In the meantime these young hooligans are still going to be out there killing. Get them off the streets. Start making harsh examples of them that might put the fear of god into others.

Yeah, because locking up swathes of the poor and black youth has really worked well in America and totally solved crime and anti-social behaviour

 

[Eric Jarvis]

The thing is do we want to focus on reducing crime or punishing those who commit crime or both?

Harsher punishment doesn't really have a impact on the amount of crime.

Also worth remembering that the UK crime rate is pretty low at the moment anyway.

There have been loads of studies done over decades. The simple fact is that the severity of sentencing has no affect on crime rates, the likelihood of being sentenced at all has significant impact, and the more severe the ;ike;y sentence the lass likely there is to be a guilty verdict in court. Harsher punishments are solely useful for making vindictive people feel good.

 

[pbsmooth]

RememberDamilola Taylor. Same discussions. That was what 25 years ago.

I am pretty sure firearms offences have massively dropped since a peak around 2000. I can find a figure saying around 6000 offences in 2023 compared to around 25,000 in 2000, though I don't know if reporting has changed.
but one change that seems to have happened is these drug gangs have realised they can use kids with knives to do their bidding. so while this isn't a good thing, obviously, it is perhaps a change in how they operate and the associated crimes rather than the sort of 'terrifying rise' in gang crime that is sometimes reported. doesn't help the kids but worth having in mind.

 

[Eric Jarvis]

Human beings learn by example too. If the lesson from the state is "do things we don't like and we will severely hurt you" then it's daft not to expect everybody to learn that and for violent crime to increase.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I am pretty sure firearms offences have massively dropped since a peak around 2000. I can find a figure saying around 6000 offences in 2023 compared to around 25,000 in 2000, though I don't know if reporting has changed.
but one change that seems to have happened is these drug gangs have realised they can use kids with knives to do their bidding. so while this isn't a good thing, obviously, it is perhaps a change in how they operate and the associated crimes rather than the sort of 'terrifying rise' in gang crime that is sometimes reported. doesn't help the kids but worth having in mind.

That may well be the case in terms of firearms offences, but a this thread is about knife crime which does appear to be increasing:

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn04304/

In addition to that a lot of people have given up reporting 'lower level ' crime and anti social behaviour. It's these lower level crimes that scare and anger a lot of people, but they've worked out that the cops aren't interested in doing anything about them.

I do wonder why - when people can work out their own objective reality - why people quote selected statistcs that seem to argue that crime is a reducing problem or that crime isn't a persistent fear for a lot of people.

 

[xenon]

I am pretty sure firearms offences have massively dropped since a peak around 2000. I can find a figure saying around 6000 offences in 2023 compared to around 25,000 in 2000, though I don't know if reporting has changed.
but one change that seems to have happened is these drug gangs have realised they can use kids with knives to do their bidding. so while this isn't a good thing, obviously, it is perhaps a change in how they operate and the associated crimes rather than the sort of 'terrifying rise' in gang crime that is sometimes reported. doesn't help the kids but worth having in mind.

You may be correct. However, he was stabbed to death. Gun crime is relatively rare anyway, for obvious reasons. Despite blowhard journos who do the, I could get a Gloc within half hour of leaving my office, shtick.


As an aside, I remember hearing there was a feeling amongst some stabby inclined youth that you could inflict a non fatal wound by stabbing someone in the arse cheek, failing to realise there's a major artuary round there.

 

[pbsmooth]

That may well be the case in terms of firearms offences, but a this thread is about knife crime which does appear to be increasing:

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn04304/

In addition to that a lot of people have given up reporting 'lower level ' crime and anti social behaviour. It's these lower level crimes that scare and anger a lot of people, but they've worked out that the cops aren't interested in doing anything about them.

I do wonder why - when people can work out their own objective reality - why people quote selected statistcs that seem to argue that crime is a reducing problem or that crime isn't a persistent fear for a lot of people.

yes, my point was that may be in part because it is replacing gun crime. and it would then in turn explain why kids are stabbing each other - they're doing the bidding of people who 20 years ago would have been shooting people themselves.

 

[Elpenor]

I see Spy has already done his lock ‘em all up routine on Friday

Anyone suggested introducing national service yet?

 

[Serge Forward]

Or mentioned The Birch.

 

[newme]

What the left doesn't seem to understand is that dealing harshly with crime doesn't just have to be one of the right-wing's calling cards. People are sick and tired of having their lives blighted by crime and Labour's inaction on this is one of the things that is very likely going to drive even more voters into the hands of Farage and co at the next election.
I absolutely hear the need to deal with social issues to stop young people being driven towards gangs etc but this is a long-term aspiration. In the meantime these young hooligans are still going to be out there killing. Get them off the streets. Start making harsh examples of them that might put the fear of god into others.

What left?