Sara Sharif murder: ‘sadist’ father and stepmother jailed for life

[GarveyLives]

Please excuse the red top.

Sara Sharif’s dad ‘has neck sliced with tuna tin lid as he’s ambushed in prison’

Two inmates at HMP Belmarsh in South London reportedly ambushed Urfan Sharif in his cell with the jagged edge of a tuna tin lid, weeks after he was locked away for life for the murder of daughter Sara

www.mirror.co.uk

Steven Sansom, the New Addington murderer who was released on parole and then committed another murder, has been named as the Belmarsh Prison inmate who assaulted Urfan Sharif, recently convicted of the murder of his daughter, Sara Sharif:

National paper names Steven Sansom as Urfan Sharif’s cell attacker

They were meant for each other?​

 

[Wilf]

I don't think it's extremely unlikely at all. An awful lot can happen in 40 years.

You say you want him forgotten. I say there's only one way to guarantee that.

But again, this is just an element that you're choosing to pursue, rather than looking at the thing holistically.

Well, never say never, but the chances of any kind of liberal criminal justice system appearing in the near future are.... limited. Also, I can't think of a case less likely than this to get an intervention by a future Home Sec/the courts/Lord Longford type.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

A subject for another thread, probably, but yes, any real conversation about crme and punishment has to start from here. What is prison for? I think that question is far too rarely asked.

I think the official answer is protection, punishment and rehabilitation.

All well and good - except that rehabilitation seems to be very low down on the list, probably because of overcrowding and lack of will.

But isn't there a place for retribution? It's a human desire to want retribution when someone has done something so heinous and disgusting.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think the official answer is protection, punishment and rehabilitation.

All well and good - except that rehabilitation seems to be very low down on the list, probably because of overcrowding and lack of will.

But isn't there a place for retribution? It's a human desire to want retribution when someone has done something so heinous and disgusting.

'Punishment' covers retribution, no?

 

[Wilf]

I can, just about, see your logic. However I think it's a pretty shabby response to a post where someone relates that they've been abused as a child.

This didn't need posting, already covered in the intervening pages of the thread. However, I'd just clarify that, when I say I can 'see the logic', I meant that calls for retribution can shape up in some circumstances as abusive. For example, calls for rapists to be raped in prison. I wasn't, if it even needs saying, agreeing with krtek that Petcha's line of argument on this thread made him an 'abuser'. I won't tag you in case you are taking a break from this thread Petcha, but I'm sorry to hear about your experiences.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think the official answer is protection, punishment and rehabilitation.

All well and good - except that rehabilitation seems to be very low down on the list, probably because of overcrowding and lack of will.

But isn't there a place for retribution? It's a human desire to want retribution when someone has done something so heinous and disgusting.

what do you consider the difference to be between retribution and justice?

 

[Petcha]

This didn't need posting, already covered in the intervening pages of the thread. However, I'd just clarify that, when I say I can 'see the logic', I meant that calls for retribution can shape up in some circumstances as abusive. For example, calls for rapists to be raped in prison. I wasn't, if it even needs saying, agreeing with krtek that Petcha's line of argument on this thread made him an 'abuser'. I won't tag you in case you are taking a break from this thread Petcha, but I'm sorry to hear about your experiences.

Hey, no worries. I had a PM from krtek this morning apologising for it, apology very much accepted. I think we can all post shit on here without thinking it out too much sometimes. Just catching up on the thread now but all good.

 

[PTK]

If we are to actually improve society and reduce these horrors, everything possible should be done to try to do that, including engaging with the perpetrators themselves. This is not at odds with looking out for victims and their families. The two can and should coexist and complement one another.

Yes, I always argue that we need to understand why people do these horrific things. How do they become like that? How can we stop people becoming like that? What are the warning signs? How can we intervene to prevent warped people from being in a position to inflict such crimes?

 

[ElizabethofYork]

'Punishment' covers retribution, no?

Not sure. In my mind, retribution is more subjective. More vengeful. Punishment is more about blind justice.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not sure. In my mind, retribution is more subjective. More vengeful. Punishment is more about blind justice.

In that case, I don't see a place for it within a legal system. You killed my child, so I kill your child. That's retribution. An eye for an eye and we all go blind.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not sure. In my mind, retribution is more subjective. More vengeful. Punishment is more about blind justice.

that's not really shedding light on the question

 

[Spymaster]

what do you consider the difference to be between retribution and justice?

Retribution is an element of justice.

I’m having lunch but I’ll weigh-in on Liz’s side later!

 

[emanymton]

Retribution is an element of justice.

I’m having lunch but I’ll weigh-in on Liz’s side later!

(((Liz)))

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Retribution is an element of justice.

I’m having lunch but I’ll weigh-in on Liz’s side later!

My hero

 

[8ball]

Where are these swift clean deaths you speak of? Not much evidence of that in the good old USA anyway.

Five States and (I think) the US military still allow for CP by firing squad.

 

[Pickman's model]

Retribution is an element of justice.

I’m having lunch but I’ll weigh-in on Liz’s side later!

((elizabeth of york))

 

[emanymton]

Five States and (I think) the US military still allow for CP by firing squad.

Most of the US methods of execution seem to be about finding a way torture someone to death, while pretending you aren't.

 

[8ball]

Most of the US methods of execution seem to be about finding a way torture someone to death, while pretending you aren't.

Their method of lethal injection is quite bizarre to me. Three drugs, all typically illegally procured (very rarely mentioned, that), two of which you really don’t want any awareness for, plus what would be an admittedly decent sedative if administered by an anaesthetist, except it is administered by a prison official.

Obv medics want nothing to do with it, but surely it would be far better to find a vet who agrees with CP and is willing to administer the same drug they give dogs.

Some of the other stuff, like the gas chamber (last used in 2020), and the electric chair (still an option in a couple of States, I think), is pure Vaudeville horror show theatre. I’m only surprised they have the minimal decorum required to not have it on pay-per-view.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

Their method of lethal injection is quite bizarre to me. Three drugs, all typically illegally procured (very rarely mentioned, that), two of which you really don’t want any awareness for, plus what would be an admittedly decent sedative if administered by an anaesthetist, except it is administered by a prison official.

Obv medics want nothing to do with it, but surely it would be far better to find a vet who agrees with CP and is willing to administer the same drug they give dogs.

Some of the other stuff, like the gas chamber (last used in 2020), and the electric chair (still an option in a couple of States, I think), is pure Vaudeville horror show theatre. I’m only surprised they have the minimal decorum required to not have it on pay-per-view.

What kills a dog or a cat might not necessarily kill a human, though.

 

[emanymton]

Their method of lethal injection is quite bizarre to me. Three drugs, all typically illegally procured (very rarely mentioned, that), two of which you really don’t want any awareness for, plus what would be an admittedly decent sedative if administered by an anaesthetist, except it is administered by a prison official.

Obv medics want nothing to do with it, but surely it would be far better to find a vet who agrees with CP and is willing to administer the same drug they give dogs.

Years ago there was a report on the Today programme about the difficulty they have getting the drugs. One state was having to ask another to send them some, and they were reading out sections from their email exchange, which I thought was odd until they got to the last one which was from the state asking for drugs to the state sending them which included the line "thanks you guys are lifesavers".

Note this was a long time ago sonI might be getting some of details of the situation wrong, but not that line.

 

[8ball]

What kills a dog or a cat might not necessarily kill a human, though.

This stuff (pentobarbital) certainly does, and was one of the drugs used in the lethal injection process for many States but has become harder and harder to procure from manufacturers who don’t want to sell it for this purpose.

A number of States actually do use it as a backup drug if they can get it.

I was oversimplifying a bit and talking about the most used protocol, but it does vary a bit. Increasingly because of supply issues, but previously it was often the case that different States just preferred different drugs for some reason. Probably to show they weren’t the Fed’s bitch or something.

 

[Spymaster]

A subject for another thread, probably, but yes, any real conversation about crme and punishment has to start from here. What is prison for? I think that question is far too rarely asked.

It's always asked but it's not particularly useful because there's no universal agreement on it, or even the order of importance of the various parts of it.

As you said before, probably the most important element is incapacitation; to protect people from the criminal. Rehabilitation is another, but you'll get scores of opinions on that; same with deterrence. The part where I think you lose your way on this is the principle of retribution (vengeance/punishment). Someone else, VivaE I think, said that the only reason for CP was vengeance. That's wrong, but vengeance/retribution is a huge part of punishment/justice and always has been. We generally believe that any punishment should be proportionate to the crime committed. That's why there are different types of it. If we didn't believe that, everyone would receive the same sentence regardless of what they've done.

So societal vengeance/retribution, is dialled in to every sentence and is a completely intrinsic factor of justice. All that we disagree about is how far it should go.

 

[8ball]

It's always asked but it's not particularly useful because there's no universal agreement on it, or even the order of importance of the various parts of it.

As you said before, probably the most important element is incapacitation; to protect people from the criminal. Rehabilitation is another, but you'll get scores of opinions on that; same with deterrence. The part where I think you lose your way on this is the principle of retribution (vengeance/punishment). Someone else, VivaE I think, said that the only reason for CP was vengeance. That's wrong, but vengeance/retribution is a huge part of punishment/justice and always has been. We generally believe that any punishment should be proportionate to the crime committed. That's why there are different types of it. If we didn't believe that, everyone would receive the same sentence regardless of what they've done.

So societal vengeance/retribution, is dialled in to every sentence and is a completely intrinsic factor of justice. All that we disagree about is how far it should go.

I don’t think a relation between crime and sentence length is only down to the retribution element.
I’m not sure why you are failing to acknowledge how it also links to elements like containment and rehabilitation.

 

[Spymaster]

In that case, I don't see a place for it within a legal system. You killed my child, so I kill your child. That's retribution. An eye for an eye and we all go blind.

No. That's equivalence. It can only be taken so far otherwise you'd have to advocate raping rapists, torturing torturers etc. Nobody sane agrees with that although Sharia law does come close in some respects.

Retribution is the act of saying "you've done wrong and we're going to punish you by taking away your liberty (or something else)".

 

[Pickman's model]

We generally believe that any punishment should be proportionate to the crime committed.

That's a massive assumption

 

[Spymaster]

I’m not sure why you are failing to acknowledge how it also links to elements like containment and rehabilitation.

I acknowledged both in the post you've quoted.

 

[Spymaster]

That's a massive assumption

No it's not. It's why we don't sentence people to 30 years for littering.

 

[BigMoaner]

No it's not. It's why we don't sentence people to 30 years for littering.

Yes, that’s far too excessive. Should be about 15.

 

[8ball]

I acknowledged both in the post you've quoted.

Ah, ok - I read this:

“…vengeance/retribution is a huge part of punishment/justice and always has been. We generally believe that any punishment should be proportionate to the crime committed. That's why there are different types of it. If we didn't believe that, everyone would receive the same sentence regardless of what they've done.”

… as singling out punishment as the reason for the difference between sentences.

It still reads that way to me, with a pretty distinct separation from the part where you mention two of the other objectives of sentencing.

 

[Spymaster]

Ah, ok - I read this:

“…vengeance/retribution is a huge part of punishment/justice and always has been. We generally believe that any punishment should be proportionate to the crime committed. That's why there are different types of it. If we didn't believe that, everyone would receive the same sentence regardless of what they've done.”

… as singling out punishment as the reason for the difference between sentences.

It still reads that way to me, with a pretty distinct separation from the part where you mention two of the other objectives of sentencing.

Perhaps I could have been clearer, but obviously punishment isn't the only reason for sentencing.