Pedestrian jailed for causing death of cyclist

[Magnus McGinty]

Juries not doing what they're supposed to can be an extremely good thing. We saw that most recently with the Colston six.

I’m guessing the opposite can also be true then. Right wing jury sending down anti-fascists for example.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I’m sure juries possibly do it. But aren’t really supposed to. Their job is to establish guilt beyond reasonable doubt without taking into account aggravating or mitigating factors.

They determine guilt, not just whether the defendant did what the prosecution says they did. If in the jury's view what the defendant did was not or should not have been a crime, they're entitled to find that there was no guilt. This is called jury nullification. It's not popular with judges.

 

[Pickman's model]

They determine guilt, not just whether the defendant did what the prosecution says they did. If in the jury's view what the defendant did was not or should not have been a crime, they're entitled to find that there was no guilt. This is called jury nullification. It's not popular with judges.

Never mind

 

[Magnus McGinty]

They determine guilt, not just whether the defendant did what the prosecution says they did. If in the jury's view what the defendant did was not or should not have been a crime, they're entitled to find that there was no guilt. This is called jury nullification. It's not popular with judges.

Fair enough. But like I said, this leeway presumably works both ways.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Fair enough. But like I said, this leeway presumably works both ways.

Yes, but the common starting point to all trials is that the state wants, and believes it can get, a conviction. So-called perverse juries generally make judgements that go against the state's wishes.

You do get compliant juries, who go along with a shoddy state case. For example in the inquest into the Mark Duggan shooting, in which the stated evidence flatly contradicted itself, the jury bought it anyway.

 

[maomao]

I can't find any record of the two original mistrials. There surely is a written record of stuff like that.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I’m guessing the opposite can also be true then. Right wing jury sending down anti-fascists for example.

In 2011 lots of young black kids from inner London who were accused of involvement in the riots were sent to Kingston upon Thames, London's whitest borough, to be tried.

The director of public prosecutions at the time, who insisted on trials happening as quickly as possible even at the expense of due process was... (answers on a postcard)

 

[Pickman's model]

In 2011 lots of young black kids from inner London who were accused of involvement in the riots were sent to Kingston upon Thames, London's whitest borough, to be tried.

The director of public prosecutions at the time, who insisted on trials happening as quickly as possible even at the expense of due process was... (answers on a postcard)

One sir keithly shammer?

 

[maomao]

London's whitest borough

is Bromley.

 

[SpookyFrank]

One sir keithly shammer?

Wasn't a Ser at the time. Seems likely his kangaroo court strategy in 2011 helped earn him his gong.

 

[SpookyFrank]

is Bromley.

Think you'll find Bromley is actually the 74th whitest place in Kent.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Bromley is both kind of London and Kent weirdly.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Bromley is both kind of London and Kent weirdly.

Kingston is both kind of London and Surrey.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Just wait til you find out what happened to Middlesex.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Kingston is both kind of London and Surrey.

Yeah there’s a few places like that bordering on the Home Counties.

 

[maomao]

Yeah there’s a few places like that bordering on the Home Counties.

You live in Stratford which was once part of Essex don't you?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

You live in Stratford which was once part of Essex don't you?

Yeah. I was just thinking that the ‘spoons in Stratford and the one in Forest Gate have a good racial mix of punters. But travel a couple of miles to The George in Wanstead and it’s all white.

 

[sleaterkinney]

I'm loathe to say that the jury has made a mistake without seeing the full evidence, but if the extent of the evidence is what we've been presented here and in the media, I think it's the wrong decision.

The wrong decision in that she didn't cause the accident?.

 

[Spymaster]

The wrong decision in that she didn't cause the accident?.

In that I think she should have been acquitted of manslaughter.

 

[sleaterkinney]

In that I think she should have been acquitted of manslaughter.

What about if she had scared a pedestrian onto the road, where they were run over?.

 

[Spymaster]

What about if she had scared a pedestrian onto the road, where they were run over?.

Why would that make a difference?

And stop putting full stops after question marks

 

[maomao]

What if Auriol Grey had been a thirty year old, able bodied and behaved in an identical manner with the same result?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Her name keeps making me think of the plane that bombed Hiroshima.

 

[Pickman's model]

Her name keeps making me think of the plane that bombed Hiroshima.

Enola Gay

 

[Spymaster]

What if Auriol Grey had been a thirty year old, able bodied and behaved in an identical manner with the same result?

For me, there's no manslaughter here for the reasons explained earlier.

So there are 2 wrongs; the manslaughter verdict, and the subsequent sentence.

 

[maomao]

Where is the assault?

Shouting at someone "get off the fucking pavement" is not an assault. And again, the recklessness he refers to is a 'sweep of the arm' which no contact has been argued for.

I'm pretty sure what Grey did meets the definition of common assault. It doesn't have to involve any physical contact.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Why would that make a difference?

And stop putting full stops after question marks

It wouldn’t. The fact she was on a bike is immaterial, beyond triggering some people.

If you force someone out into a fast stream of traffic of course it’s grounds for manslaughter.

 

[Spymaster]

I'm pretty sure what Grey did meets the definition of common assault.

I don't think it does.

Shouting "get off the pavement" and waving at the road doesn't satisfy 'causing someone to apprehend imminent use of force', imo. Can you show an example where similar behaviour has resulted in an assault conviction?

 

[weepiper]

I don't think it does.

Shouting "get off the pavement" and waving at the road doesn't satisfy 'causing someone to apprehend imminent use of force', imo. Can you show an example where similar behaviour has resulted in an assault conviction?

Get off the fucking pavement, and waving hand in the cyclist's face.

 

[Spymaster]

If you force someone out into a fast stream of traffic of course it’s grounds for manslaughter.

She didn't do that though.