Oceangate's Titan. The Bayesian yacht. Why do the deaths of rich people matter more than poor people?
- Thread starter rasputin
- Start date
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Isn't that one of the sons of Noah?
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
Have you heard of Godwin's law? Well this is Urban's law. As a thread grows in length, the probability of it descending into class-based insults reaches 1 at an exponential rate, which is inversely proportional to the square of fucks given about the subject matter.
MickiQ
Also worth bearing in mind that the disparity between the west and the rest isn't as big as it was.
Most of the world is urbanised now, and the precarity of urban poverty is more similar around the world than you may imagine. It is different to rural poverty as portrayed in charity adverts in the 90s. There are a lot of people in this country who just about stay alive through use of charity and food banks etc, I don't think their living standards are qualitatively different from e.g. someone unemployed or in precarious employment relying on charity from the Mosque to survive in e.g. Cairo.
There is some truth in this, for the middle and upper end of the working classes, but lets not pretend poverty here is anything like poverty in even in the stronger developing economies. My family from Latin America find themselves befuzzled when we talk about poverty and with good reason, whole different ball games.
Even when I talk about poverty here, its lead to some very, shall we say, candid reality checks. And having explored said countries intimately, its not even on the same planet.
Last edited:
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
If you're cold, hungry and homeless, you're cold, hungry and homeless. There's no "more cold", "more hungry", "more homeless". It's relentless.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
Late with this, I know.
In a different mode of production, for someone like you, being an ordinary peasant farmer, it wouldn't matter how much effort you expended in defending the King from outside the castle walls. They'd never let you in through the front gate.
Orcas aren't even the same fucking species of mammal but they fucking get it, with their ongoing efforts in the class war. Red Salute.
And nobody should be in that situation. Sorry if that comes across as strong, but please remember that European imperialism played significant hand in the type of poverty suffered in most of these countries.
What you're saying is wrong. The first time I talked about European poverty with my inlaws I was eviscerated on the spot, and rightfully so, it reeked of my own privilege and I was swiftly educated.
Poverty should not exist here, not at all. But, please dont compare to developing countries, its so far removed from reality its unreal and does a disservice to the people in those countries who live through that life, much of which is as a direct consequence of our imperialism and wealth and opportunities we enjoy was brought at the expense and exploitation of these peoples.
So yes, poverty is bad and needs to be tackled. But, please, you undermine the reality of life elsewhere when you make out its the same.
bcuster
Well-Known Member
Superyacht captain investigated on suspicion of manslaughter after deadly sinking
The Bayesian went down last Monday in a storm. The bodies of British tech magnate Mike Lynch and five other people were retrieved after a dayslong rescue effort.
www.nbcnews.com
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
OMFG.
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
You talked about it, lol. I can't.
There is a quantitative difference rather than a qualitative difference.
I think the poverty you are probably talking about (low wages, high rent) is qualitatively different to poverty in e.g. parts of Latin America. But I was thinking more of people I've encountered at the People's Kitchen who exist at the extreme end of poverty in this country. The extreme end is more common elsewhere but it isn't non-existent in this country. Hundreds of people die from malnutrition every year in the UK.
My point is people still tend to be lagging in understanding of what the developing world is like. There is greater poverty than the west but it isn't like everyone is literally starving to death and living in mud huts with a 10 mile walk everyday to the well to get clean drinking water. Even in Sub-Saharan Africa around half of people have mobile phones with Internet access for example, over 90% in some countries.
Africa: Five countries have near 100% mobile phone ownership (survey)
In Africa, network coverage has greatly improved over the past decade. In some countries, it is nearly 100% and mobile phones are getting more affordable. But, some issues still hamper digital inclusion. In 2021, five African countries had over 94% mobile phone ownership (meaning that almost...
seventh bullet
sovietwave
There are no 'developing' or 'poor' countries. They're countries awash with and abundant in wealth, both in natural and human terms, but deliberately and perpetually kept in an impoverished, dependant and weak state by the global north so as to easily strip resources and create a vast pool of low cost labour.
I regularly work with people, and made friends with, colleagues from India, the Phillipines, Thailand, Kenya etc. We're aware of our differences in experience, as workers in a globally unequal capitalist system, but we're still able to contextualise experiences of socio-economic and racial inequality born of European colonialism without individual moralising.
I feel my point has flown over your head. While I feel for your situation, still at no point should we ever be comparing situations here to those in developing countries.
Yes, being in poverty here is qualitively different to poverty in Latin America.
But this is part of the point, we have those safety nets. They exist. This is not the case in developing countries, and thats just one thing.
No, a lot of people don't understand the developing world. Like I said, life can be good for the middle classes and those at the upper end of the working classes. These countries aren't the hell holes the right like to make out. But the poverty gap is extreme and the type of poverty thats virtually non existent here and even if it does, there are safety nets - even if they are shit, they exist. Not so everywhere.
My SO is from Mexico, I have lived there and know it intimately. Around 60% of families do not have access to clean drinking water and 40% to safe sanitation. Literally know people in Mexico City whose source of water is the sky and yeah, they're drinking highly polluted water. And its funny because in Mexico water is a thing, an obsessive thing, for everybody, even the middle classes. Its recycled even by those who are comfortable. You take the water from the washing machine, and in buckets from rainwater to flush the toilet. Thats what many do there.
I remember when my GF was administering vaccines to kids in the poorest parts of town, the levels of poverty were on a level beyond anything I've seen here and I'm not ignorant.
There are millions of people who do not have access to schools, or healthcare, millions who literally do live in huts with little to no access to infrastructure, I've been to places where they have to venture through actual jungles in extreme heat and humidity to get food.
And this is without getting into the darker shit that we still fuel, and disproportionately affects those in poverty. We don't have to deal with any of that.
Even in Sub-Saharan Africa around half of people have mobile phones with Internet access for example, over 90% in some countries.
Africa: Five countries have near 100% mobile phone ownership (survey)
In Africa, network coverage has greatly improved over the past decade. In some countries, it is nearly 100% and mobile phones are getting more affordable. But, some issues still hamper digital inclusion. In 2021, five African countries had over 94% mobile phone ownership (meaning that almost...www.ecofinagency.com
There may be a disparity for mobile phone masts for some weird ass reason, but it don't tell you much.
Eh, thats a take.
Oh yeah, we definitely do that.
Is working with people truly a representative view, living with has painted a different view for me. But then, I think, if you are familiar with the reality of life in developing countries and aren't cocooned then you know full well what I am referring to. For me, personally, any insinuation that we are like a developing country puts a sour taste in my mouth and its absolutely relevant to colonialism both in the past and today.
Last edited:
Tangently via podcast I was hearing about the American working class literature movement. I need to read up on this more. This was around the 30s and 40s. Subsistent farmers moving into the cities. A pattern that is seen across the industrialised nations.
You aren't wrong, I'm just cautioning against drawing an absolute line between the west and the rest. Like you said there are people there for whom life is good, and the type of extreme poverty you describe is not the reality for most people in Mexico.
You also seem to be talking about poverty of a rural nature, which I agree is qualitatively different to urban poverty - I'm just pointing out that this is no longer the typical experience in the non-western world and the assumption that there is always a clear divide is in itself a thinking borne out of western colonialism.
FWIW I'm coming from a slightly different lived experience to you. I have lived in a developing country before, but that was China, where the rapid development of infrastructure in some developing nations is a more striking lesson than what you might learn from experience in Latin America. Obviously poverty in rural China is a different beast but urban poverty didn't seem terribly different in nature to the west.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
My point is that countries are not allowed to fully develop by the very system that keeps them in a subservient position. Countries like that are not 'poor.' Their valuable resources are extracted and its populations are kept impoverished because of that process. You bang on about colonialism but don't seem to comprehend it. It's more about feelings with you. People being mean. And you're arguing about something nobody to my knowledge has said. You're weaponising extreme poverty you don't experience to feel morally superior to others. A privileged pursuit, if I do say so myself.
This is difficult to reply to without creating a really long response because its ungodly complicated and you're highlighting an important point that can be somewhat contradictory because there is a negative, and incorrect, perception of developing countries. However, there are disparities and socio-economic problems that we created that people still live through. Then, when people try to draw parallels between our lives and those in post colonial countries we also run a serious risk of playing into or giving legitimacy to other stuff. The reality is that in many post colonial countries there is modern and wealth, but also a social divide.
I love Mexico and Mexico City is my favourite city in the world, and I go to great lengths to correct misconceptions that undermine the country prejoratively. But on the other hand, its also important to correctly acknowledge the problems, especially when we have a problem with accepting accountability, and our role in things internationally, and during a rise in fetishisation of empire.
China may be very different, I don't have enough experience to comment. I tend to focus on post New World Colonialism because thats where I have the most experience and I'm less likely to get stuff arse up. But as far as Latin America is concerned you have fairly extreme divides where you have very modern, cosmopolitan cities and rural towns that are very pretty and where life is good if you're like upper working class and above. But, then there is this socio-economic line where if you happen to fall below it then you'd end up in a type of poverty that doesn't really exist here, and where it does exist it exists in a much softer form. Its also the case that people of indiginous background fall into these marginalised communities who are affected the extremes of poverty and post-colonial prejudices.
Whilst you're correct that rural poverty is more extreme than urban poverty, that does not equate to urban poverty being like for like with European urban poverty. Urban poverty is more severe but it often tends to be hidden from view unless you have ground level experience. Like, if we take Mexico City you have many cosmopolitan districts such as Reforma, Chapultapec, Condesa, Polanco, Santa Fe, Del Sur, and a lot of Hidalgo. Thats a big chunk of the city. If you head towards the East, North or Estado de Mexico then there is a notable change and there are pockets of very extreme poverty and even outright gettos.
And to be blunt, if you're a foreigner or you have connections to the locals who are well educated or in professional positions then these cosmopolitcan districts are likely "your base" and depending upon the socio-economic background of your connections those other districts could be places you don't really go. Myself included in this, my SOs family is from the Polanco area and their lives are very different to those in places like Estado de Mexico, insurmountably so. She has indiginous roots though, so she also has family and we have friends elsewhere, and are very well travelled, so we go to those districts and towns, and different regions and the situations are very different.
If we cut through it all, even urban poverty takes on a different form with far more severe conditions that affect people.
In Mexico City around 1,000,000 do not have access to clean running water or sanitation, this disproportionately affects those in poverty and by extension those of more indiginous backgrounds. Water itself is a vulnerable commodity for all people because the infrastructure is too soft to provide reliable water sources. Even if you're in a middle class family you're likely hyper-aware of water consumption and upcycle your water. Even if you're a middle class family you may be collecting rain water and brown water from the washing machine etc for various purposes such as flushing the toilet. This can sound like a really good green idea, and it is, but its also born out of a necessity.
There is also a tiered system towards healthcare and education even in the cities. Health and education inequality are hot button topics and drill down even to basic access and safe access where healthcare is concerened. In poor communities healthcare is often dealt with inside the family because of access and health inequality. A lot of the free and low cost healthcare providers can verge on dangerous to use.
On education, there are significant inequalities that go beyond anything here with significant variances in educational quality, and whilst numbers vary its something like 45% of children completing secondary education. This is also by all reporting directly connected to poverty and is country wide.
There are also poverty related environmental risks. The quality of housing for those in poverty is significantly lower than the worst standards here. Two really easy examples are earthquakes and the rainy season. Whilst it might seem a bit country specific, keep in mind that places like California and Japan do not have the same degree of problems alongside natural hazards. When there is an earthquake it tends to be communities who are in poverty who are worst hit, my FIL worries about a mag 7, his brother worries about a mag 5 kind of thing. You also have very poor building standards where houses have been erected without consideration to regulations and built in places they shouldn't be built. Again, people in poverty are the most likely to be affected by this. Every rainy season you stick the news on and its flood after flood, mudslide after mudslide and always poor indiginous people who are most affected. This is common in Estado de Mexico which is the north of the city and the urban towns to the north.
On a more human level, some of the housing in the poorer parts of the city are shocking. Heading into Hidalgo from the family home there are houses that are basically shed panels across the front, a couple of steel poles at the back, and corrogated metal sheets for a roof, held together by rope and loose bricks, built alongside an unfenced railway track. And their kids play in the mud on the railway track. This is in a country that has Mag 6 and 7 earthquakes on the regular and a rainy season that sees high winds.
Now, whilst stuff like that does exist here, its nowhere near as commonplace and doesn't come with all the other issues alongside it. There is a tonne of other stuff too like access to social safety nets being far less robust than ours, post colonial racism and treatment of indiginous communities, the absolute hot mess American and European drug additions, and Americas ventures into South America have caused and how this also disproportionately affects people from indiginous backgrounds and as an extension poverty. How colonialism lead to acts of genocide, social and ethnic cleansing, implementation of racist caste systems, stealing of land, and pillaging of resources that put these societies on the back foot and continues to do so today.
Correct.
They have been rendered poor.
Exactly.
OK, if you say so.
No I pointed out a problem with trying to equate situations here with developing countries. If it stung then it stung, if you felt attacked then I'm sorry but I stand by what I said. But please, don't go on about privileged superiority at me, you know nothing of my socio-economic background or experiences nor those of my family and life in Mexico.
I don't mean to be a bitch or anything, but just so you're aware. You've snarked me (and a Mexican national who was sat with me, interjecting constantly on my posts, a person whose career is based on tackling the systems I'm talking about, an ambition I support wholeheartedly) as a "privileged purist" and qualified it with that you work for a multinational and so have travelled and know people.
Of course, we all draw from our experiences and our opinions may differ. But, your snark was unnecessary and was frankly utterly misplaced. When I questioned whether working with people and living with people may paint different pictures, it was not meant as a superior attack on you, it was a perfectly reasonable and honest point about how the nature of our connections and the context of our experiences can reveal different things about a country. Being cocooned is a real thing, and it isn't an insult or a put down. Its just how shit goes and raising whether a differing of experiences may be because of how we engage with a culture is fair.
You know, considering this is supposed to be a left wing, progressive, forum, I'm actually quite surprised that "don't misrepresent poverty as like for like to developing countries" is such a controversial statement.
Last edited:
Flavour
hang the bankers
There are places in the so-called developed world where the poverty is comparable to places in countries considered developing/global south or whatever. The Roma people throughout most of Southern and Eastern Europe live in a type of poverty that is absolutely comparable to the poverty in, for example, Mexico.
Firstly, because its been alluded to a few times, as long as terms that are still commonly used across the political spectrum internationally are not being misused and language is being used appropriately then I think its a bit of a distraction.
Anyway, exceptions don't really disprove the point and especially not somewhere that is marginalised. I think the whole trying to draw equivelancy isn't helpful because it plays into, and lends legitimacy to, a lot of tropes, and our culture has a big problem with the concepts of priviledge and accountability, and is on the whole inaccurate in the first place.
Good post - I don't think we really disagree as such but we were coming at things with a different emphasis and angle.
Wookey
Muppet is not a slur
I never read very long posts, coz I can't be arsed, but I enjoyed reading every word of that.
Boris Sprinkler
Dont be scared
Why should we care when rich criminals die?
By coincidence his co defendant also had a freak accident the same time.
If working taught me anything, it is that you do not fuck off rich people.
They can pay for coroners reports and even news reports of tornadoes.
By coincidence his co defendant also had a freak accident the same time.
If working taught me anything, it is that you do not fuck off rich people.
They can pay for coroners reports and even news reports of tornadoes.
A bunch of innocent people and a kid died. Like, there is a whole lack of empathy there. Not to mention wishing death of people being dark to begin with.
Boris Sprinkler
Dont be scared
No there is not at all.
I’m saying this is what happens when you try and rip off the big boys.
To try and imply I don’t care about the kids that died is something else.
I’m saying this is what happens when you try and rip off the big boys.
To try and imply I don’t care about the kids that died is something else.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
I don’t recall a kid being amongst the dead.
Similar threads
