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Oceangate's Titan. The Bayesian yacht. Why do the deaths of rich people matter more than poor people?

Rimbaud said:
Good post - I don't think we really disagree as such but we were coming at things with a different emphasis and angle.
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Yeah, I think we mostly agree but come from different places. I tend to concern myself with particular politics, so sometimes tend to read from that angle.
 
Boris Sprinkler said:
No there is not at all.
I’m saying this is what happens when you try and rip off the big boys.
To try and imply I don’t care about the kids that died is something else.
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I just find that a bit dark, and he wasn't the only person on the vessel at the time.


Orang Utan said:
I don’t recall a kid being amongst the dead.
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His daughter was a teenager. And whilst 18 is an adult I was talking colloquially.
 
lengualo said:
I just find that a bit dark, and he wasn't the only person on the vessel at the time.




His daughter was a teenager. And whilst 18 is an adult I was talking colloquially.
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Why do you find it dark?
What in particular has upset you?
The fact the corporations can be criminals?
 
Did I write this “ this is what happens when you try and come here by illegal means”?


No, I said when you fuck around with big money this is what happens.

Prove me wrong.
 
Boris Sprinkler said:
Where was I being dismissive?
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Just how it came across to me.

Boris Sprinkler said:
Did I write this “ this is what happens when you try and come here by illegal means”?


No, I said when you fuck around with big money this is what happens.

Prove me wrong.
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Its fine. I'm not that arsed about it tbh.

Saul Goodman said:
Do you know how many people die each day around the world? If I said a prayer for every one of them there would be no time left for wanking.
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Multitask?
 
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lengualo said:
This is difficult to reply to without creating a really long response because its ungodly complicated and you're highlighting an important point that can be somewhat contradictory because there is a negative, and incorrect, perception of developing countries. However, there are disparities and socio-economic problems that we created that people still live through. Then, when people try to draw parallels between our lives and those in post colonial countries we also run a serious risk of playing into or giving legitimacy to other stuff. The reality is that in many post colonial countries there is modern and wealth, but also a social divide.

I love Mexico and Mexico City is my favourite city in the world, and I go to great lengths to correct misconceptions that undermine the country prejoratively. But on the other hand, its also important to correctly acknowledge the problems, especially when we have a problem with accepting accountability, and our role in things internationally, and during a rise in fetishisation of empire.

China may be very different, I don't have enough experience to comment. I tend to focus on post New World Colonialism because thats where I have the most experience and I'm less likely to get stuff arse up. But as far as Latin America is concerned you have fairly extreme divides where you have very modern, cosmopolitan cities and rural towns that are very pretty and where life is good if you're like upper working class and above. But, then there is this socio-economic line where if you happen to fall below it then you'd end up in a type of poverty that doesn't really exist here, and where it does exist it exists in a much softer form. Its also the case that people of indiginous background fall into these marginalised communities who are affected the extremes of poverty and post-colonial prejudices.

Whilst you're correct that rural poverty is more extreme than urban poverty, that does not equate to urban poverty being like for like with European urban poverty. Urban poverty is more severe but it often tends to be hidden from view unless you have ground level experience. Like, if we take Mexico City you have many cosmopolitan districts such as Reforma, Chapultapec, Condesa, Polanco, Santa Fe, Del Sur, and a lot of Hidalgo. Thats a big chunk of the city. If you head towards the East, North or Estado de Mexico then there is a notable change and there are pockets of very extreme poverty and even outright gettos.

And to be blunt, if you're a foreigner or you have connections to the locals who are well educated or in professional positions then these cosmopolitcan districts are likely "your base" and depending upon the socio-economic background of your connections those other districts could be places you don't really go. Myself included in this, my SOs family is from the Polanco area and their lives are very different to those in places like Estado de Mexico, insurmountably so. She has indiginous roots though, so she also has family and we have friends elsewhere, and are very well travelled, so we go to those districts and towns, and different regions and the situations are very different.

If we cut through it all, even urban poverty takes on a different form with far more severe conditions that affect people.

In Mexico City around 1,000,000 do not have access to clean running water or sanitation, this disproportionately affects those in poverty and by extension those of more indiginous backgrounds. Water itself is a vulnerable commodity for all people because the infrastructure is too soft to provide reliable water sources. Even if you're in a middle class family you're likely hyper-aware of water consumption and upcycle your water. Even if you're a middle class family you may be collecting rain water and brown water from the washing machine etc for various purposes such as flushing the toilet. This can sound like a really good green idea, and it is, but its also born out of a necessity.

There is also a tiered system towards healthcare and education even in the cities. Health and education inequality are hot button topics and drill down even to basic access and safe access where healthcare is concerened. In poor communities healthcare is often dealt with inside the family because of access and health inequality. A lot of the free and low cost healthcare providers can verge on dangerous to use.

On education, there are significant inequalities that go beyond anything here with significant variances in educational quality, and whilst numbers vary its something like 45% of children completing secondary education. This is also by all reporting directly connected to poverty and is country wide.

There are also poverty related environmental risks. The quality of housing for those in poverty is significantly lower than the worst standards here. Two really easy examples are earthquakes and the rainy season. Whilst it might seem a bit country specific, keep in mind that places like California and Japan do not have the same degree of problems alongside natural hazards. When there is an earthquake it tends to be communities who are in poverty who are worst hit, my FIL worries about a mag 7, his brother worries about a mag 5 kind of thing. You also have very poor building standards where houses have been erected without consideration to regulations and built in places they shouldn't be built. Again, people in poverty are the most likely to be affected by this. Every rainy season you stick the news on and its flood after flood, mudslide after mudslide and always poor indiginous people who are most affected. This is common in Estado de Mexico which is the north of the city and the urban towns to the north.

On a more human level, some of the housing in the poorer parts of the city are shocking. Heading into Hidalgo from the family home there are houses that are basically shed panels across the front, a couple of steel poles at the back, and corrogated metal sheets for a roof, held together by rope and loose bricks, built alongside an unfenced railway track. And their kids play in the mud on the railway track. This is in a country that has Mag 6 and 7 earthquakes on the regular and a rainy season that sees high winds.

Now, whilst stuff like that does exist here, its nowhere near as commonplace and doesn't come with all the other issues alongside it. There is a tonne of other stuff too like access to social safety nets being far less robust than ours, post colonial racism and treatment of indiginous communities, the absolute hot mess American and European drug additions, and Americas ventures into South America have caused and how this also disproportionately affects people from indiginous backgrounds and as an extension poverty. How colonialism lead to acts of genocide, social and ethnic cleansing, implementation of racist caste systems, stealing of land, and pillaging of resources that put these societies on the back foot and continues to do so today.




Correct.



They have been rendered poor.



Exactly.



OK, if you say so.



No I pointed out a problem with trying to equate situations here with developing countries. If it stung then it stung, if you felt attacked then I'm sorry but I stand by what I said. But please, don't go on about privileged superiority at me, you know nothing of my socio-economic background or experiences nor those of my family and life in Mexico.

I don't mean to be a bitch or anything, but just so you're aware. You've snarked me (and a Mexican national who was sat with me, interjecting constantly on my posts, a person whose career is based on tackling the systems I'm talking about, an ambition I support wholeheartedly) as a "privileged purist" and qualified it with that you work for a multinational and so have travelled and know people.

Of course, we all draw from our experiences and our opinions may differ. But, your snark was unnecessary and was frankly utterly misplaced. When I questioned whether working with people and living with people may paint different pictures, it was not meant as a superior attack on you, it was a perfectly reasonable and honest point about how the nature of our connections and the context of our experiences can reveal different things about a country. Being cocooned is a real thing, and it isn't an insult or a put down. Its just how shit goes and raising whether a differing of experiences may be because of how we engage with a culture is fair.

You know, considering this is supposed to be a left wing, progressive, forum, I'm actually quite surprised that "don't misrepresent poverty as like for like to developing countries" is such a controversial statement.
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Nobody has compared like for like. I wasn't snarking at you, nor perceived any attack towards me coming from you. It is what I have observed in your interactions with others. All I see you doing is stating the obvious over and over again. You have also basically said the same thing I said earlier about interactions with those who actually come from the global south. I get the feeling you enjoy talking at people than with them. I stand by my other post, and it wasn't a snark.
 
seventh bullet said:
Nobody has compared like for like.
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Considering I was responding to what appeared to be a like for like comparison, I beg to differ on that.


seventh bullet said:
I wasn't snarking at you, nor perceived any attack towards me coming from you.
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Not much.

seventh bullet said:
It is what I have observed in your interactions with others. All I see you doing is stating the obvious over and over again. You have also basically said the same thing I said earlier about interactions with those who actually come from the global south.
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Neah, I said that working with people can give a differing perspective and you got irritated and started getting a tad personal. So I don't buy it, sorry. But whatever, we shall have to agree to disagree about whatever it is we are disagreeing about.

seventh bullet said:
I get the feeling you enjoy talking at people than with them. I stand by my other post, and it wasn't a snark.
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Disagreeing with people and making a point is something we all do on politics threads, especially when we go off on tangents about topics we care about. Even if we start rambling on, the last few pages before I interjected in the conversation had plenty of talking past people so I don't think I have a monopoly on that tbf.

Anyway, through some long winded exchanges I came to a consensus with the person I disagreed with so not sure what the continued issue is.
 
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lengualo said:
Considering I was responding to what appeared to be a like for like comparison, I beg to differ on that.




Not much.



Neah, I said that working with people can give a differing perspective and you got irritated. So I don't buy it, sorry. But whatever, we shall have to agree to disagree about whatever it is we are disagreeing about.



Disagreeing with people and making a point is something we all do on politics threads, especially when we go off on tangents about topics we care about. Even if we start rambling on, the last few pages before I interjected in the conversation had plenty of talking past people so I don't think I have a monopoly on that tbf.
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I was not in the slightest irritated. That's all in your head. I couldn't care less what you thought about me to be honest. You need to think that, which is weird. Also, don't assume so much about people when demanding the same holding off about your background and views from others.

I've had similar arguments with what you describe as 'cocooned' individuals when they talk positively about the flawed and mythologised Nordic model of social democracy and management of capitalism when reaching for alternatives to the decades-long shitshow of neoliberalism. Those economies still relied and still rely on (actively participate in) the superexploitation of the global south and I've been handwaved by people who consider themselves vaguely left but just don't want to think about it.
 
seventh bullet said:
I was not in the slightest irritated. That's all in your head. I couldn't care less what you thought about me to be honest. You need to think that, which is weird.
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You're the one who started getting into personal snipes but fine.

seventh bullet said:
Also, don't assume so much about people when demanding the same holding off about your background and views from others.
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Then he goes off on a political alignment rant.

seventh bullet said:
I've had similar arguments with what you describe as 'cocooned' individuals when they talk positively about the flawed and mythologised Nordic model of social democracy and management of capitalism when reaching for alternatives to the decades-long shitshow of neoliberalism. Those economies still relied and still rely on (actively participate in) the superexploitation of the global south and I've been handwaved by people who consider themselves vaguely left but just don't want to think about it.
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Not sure what the Nordic model has to do with what I was talking about. I guess it depends where we're coming from though, I was more referring to how our experiences can give us incomplete snapshots. I was actually thinking about the kinds of digital nomad types who are really common where I come from, they travel other countries and are really well informed compared to people who have never visited a country, or people who live in ex-pat communities and the likes. But also have a somewhat stilted snapshot of a country thats kind of sheltered within specific socio-economic groups which can lead to misconceptions and cultural misinterpretations. Thats fine and there is nothing ill meaning in there, but its a thing that exists. I was questioning whether working with people really gives a full picture in a similar kind of way.

I'm not sure what that has to do with neoliberalism, but like I said, I don't think I have a monopoly on talking at or past people, or rambling about topics I care about, on political forums. ;)
 
I would've thought that discussions of capitalism would be central to the unequal global system that, through the legacy of European colonialism, sees countries in the global south affected the most with regard to exploitation and autonomy, but maybe that's just me.

I haven't ranted. Nor do I understand your talk of 'political alignment.' Imputing negative emotional states in my responses to you is also the sign of your irritation and not mine?

You have said nothing that I don't know already. But you need to 'win' on the internet. Passive aggressive emojis don't hide that need of yours.
 
seventh bullet said:
I would've thought that discussions of capitalism would be central to the unequal global system that, through the legacy of European colonialism, sees countries in the global south affected the most with regard to exploitation and autonomy, but maybe that's just me.
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Depends whether that is what the person is talking about in the first place. I also think that talking about different left wing political thinking can become a distraction from the point at hand unless thats the point of the discussion. It also doesn't help that I don't fit neatly into any particular box.

I think there are multiple strands from which issues come about from. The legacy of imperialism is not just economic or the exploitation of resources and people, its one part of a greater problem. For example, is the caste system and the type of racial hierarchy that still exists in many post colonial countries really a capitalistic talking point? Whilst colonialism itself has connections to capitalism, the caste system is more about supremacy, or the after affects of it.

Like, currently, in the modern era, a light skinned Latina is going to have an easier time moving up the ladder than a woman of indiginous heritage. Is the trend of light skinned Mexican women who are conventionally attractive, and young, dominating the TV in Mexico due to capitalism? I don't think it is, I think its a racial hierarchy and beauty standards born out of ideas about racial supremacy and the oppression of the indiginous peoples. I don't think that has much of anything to do with capitalism, and this racial trend is linked to poverty due to the dynamics of the old caste system.
 
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lengualo said:
Depends whether that is what the person is talking about in the first place. I think there are multiple strands from which issues come about from. The legacy of capitalism is not just economic or the exploitation of resources and people. For example, is the caste system and the type of racial hierarchy that still exists in many post colonial countries really a capitalistic talking point? Whilst colonialism itself has connections to capitalism, the caste system is more about supremacy, or the after affects of it.

Like, currently, in the modern era, a light skinned Latina is going to have an easier time moving up the ladder than a woman of indiginous heritage. Is the trend of light skinned Mexican women who are conventionally attractive, and young, dominating the TV in Mexico due to capitalism? I don't think it is, I think its a racial hierarchy and beauty standards born out of ideas about racial supremacy and the oppression of the indiginous peoples. I don't think that has much of anything to do with capitalism, and this racial trend is linked to poverty due to the dynamics of the old caste system.
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It is not unconnected. Racism is a western-originating phenomenon and the the post hoc pseudoscientific and intellectual justification for the initial colonial conquest, then expulsion and genocide of indigenous peoples who were deemed unworthy of the lands upon which they lived because they weren't 'improving' such exploitable resources, and of course, importantly, chattel slavery. Racism is baked into the system and its spreading throughout the world. I'll talk more, if this is in good faith, but right now I have to sell my labour to an American private equity firm for the next 10 hours.
 
seventh bullet said:
It is not unconnected. Racism is a western-originating phenomenon and the the post hoc pseudoscientific and intellectual justification for the initial colonial conquest, then expulsion and genocide of indigenous peoples who were deemed unworthy of the lands upon which they lived because they weren't 'improving' such exploitable resources, and of course, importantly, chattel slavery. Racism is baked into the system and its spreading throughout the world. I'll talk more, if this is in good faith, but right now I have to sell my labour to an American private equity firm for the next 10 hours.
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Yes, I am writing in good faith. Edited because of word soup.


Racism is a western-originating phenomenon and the the post hoc pseudoscientific and intellectual justification for the initial colonial conquest, then expulsion and genocide of indigenous peoples who were deemed unworthy of the lands upon which they lived because they weren't 'improving' such exploitable resources, and of course, importantly, chattel slavery.
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I agree with most of this, however, if I'm reading correctly, it sounds almost like you're saying that racism is a capitalist or imperialist invention. I don't think thats the case, I think racism and supremacy exists independently of imperialism and capitalism, and was used as a justification by colonialists and continues to be used as such. I also don't believe racism is a western-originating phenomenon either, its existed throughout the ages across cultures, and still does.

If you're referring to the brand of white supremacy we see in Europe and the USA for sure. However, that is distinct from the racism and hierarchy in Latin America. For one, the functioning and politics of the Spanish Empire was different to the British Empire, I mean you cant exactly separate the religious conquesting from the Spanish Empire and one of the first things they did is to implement a strict religious dominion over the people, followed by an ethnic caste system that specifically favoured the Spanish Imperial (and religious) rule, and the Spanish ethnicity.

I also wouldn't exactly say these were capitalist states after independence, they were for a long time more religiously conservative than economically.

Latin America and Mexico in particular had the Spanish, French and British empires bargaining over it for their own individual interests. On top of the Spanish conquest, you had the Cake War with the French, you had the settlers to the North performing an ethnic replacement in what is now California and Texas and stealing the land from under the Mexicans, and you had the companies of the British Empire arriving for the gold mines. The Eastern port towns like Veracruz being used as a stopping point in the slave trade with the USA which has its own whole history around it and today some very pervasive racism as a result.

I think to link all European colonial history, in this case Latin American colonial history, in the way you are misunderstands their history, our role in it, and the cultural psyche of the people - like viewing it through British, or American tinted glasses.


I don't think capitalism per-se is as central to some of the issues as you're saying. I don't think a socialist society would fix it, I don't believe its inherently more capable than any other system because I don't think supremacy and racism is fundamentally linked to a particular economic ideology in that way, and the dynamics and culture of the racism in other countries doesn't necessarily operate on the same terms as those that we're used to.

Like, there are multiple different things going on and they arent all the same thing or have the same drivers. Sorry if thats a hodge-podge but thats what I wrote.
 
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I'm going to have a personal minute of silence for the approximately 1 million other people worldwide who have died in the last 7 days if that's OK with everyone who thinks these few people on a yacht are super important.
 
Elpenor said:
There was an 18 year old girl mentioned at one point, perhaps on billionaires are evil thread and by that llama poster.

I assume they meant to say 18 year old woman.
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Does not seem that weird to call and 18 yo a kid.

I realise that was in response to OU. Ahem, needless diversion. Which I suppose the whole thing is.
 
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