The status of terms 'people of colour' and BIPOC in the UK

[MickiQ]

All the black people I know personally refer to themselves as Black, regardless of where their parents and grandparents came from. All the Asian people I know of refer to themselves by their parents/grandparents nation of origin, ie as Indians, Pakistani, Chinese or Filipino though the majority of them and all the black people I know were born in the UK. Mrs Q's Mum who comes from the Philippines refers to her half-Filipina children and her quarter-Filipina grandchildren as Mestizos which is a Spanish word that Cebuano has hijacked and now means people not of pure Filipino ethnic descent. Son Q's oldest and closest friend has a white father and a black mother, we mostly refer to him as Tim but who has referred to himself as mixed-race, I haven't asked him (and don't intend to) but I have the feeling he would consider half-caste insulting.

 

[Spymaster]

…. not sure it's ever been impolite, unless followed by a rude word.

Absolutely! Most of the times I heard it, it was appended with “cunt” or “bastard”

 

[MickiQ]

A half-Welsh, half-Asian mate of mine used to go with "swarthy", which is a term I haven't heard in quite some time.

Now reserved for use by pirates

 

[cesare]

Absolutely! Most of the times I heard it, it was appended with “cunt” or “bastard”

Yes

 

[PTK]

i'm not sure i have many circumstances to use a generic term.

'ethnic minorities' was standard at one time, although personally think 'people from...' is a bit better (see also 'disabled people' / 'the disabled') and I'd thought that 'BAME' was still the current 'official' term although it's a bit meh.

i'd seen BIPOC now and then, but not enough to see what it stood for - would agree that it's potentially appropriate in the USA and maybe australia (and so on) but doesn't really work in europe.

from my (white) perspective, i'd not think it right to use 'black' as a generic term for everyone who's not white.

i've also encountered a few (mainly older, reasonably well meaning but slightly clueless) people who think that saying 'black' is either not polite or 'not allowed' - not sure it's ever been impolite, unless followed by a rude word.

Many people use “ethnic minority” as a synonym for “Black”, but ethnicity and skin colour are two different things.

 

[ska invita]

Many people use “ethnic minority” as a synonym for “Black”, but ethnicity and skin colour are two different things.

Slovenians are an ethnic minority in Britain.... which is fine, it has its specific use as such

 

[A380]

Yep. Asian here. I used to use 'black' but got told-off on here for not being proper black, so it's asian, if anything.

I don't know many (any?) black or asian people who actually care, as long as whoever is saying it isn't being intentionally disrepectful.

This is a white folk thing

There you go again with your knowing what you are talking about and lived experience derailing a thread full of us white people's opinions...

 

[klang]

I know a Jamaican woman with mixed race kids who used to call them half-castes but I've never heard anyone else use it like that...

My out-laws use it all the time. They are from a very mixed Caribbean background but only use it for black / white people.

Their children never say it, fwiw

 

[trabuquera]

white South Africans use it differently though.

I used to live with a couple, in one dreadful house share, and one day one of the other sharers - Labour voter but not very political - asked if they had had (you could almost see his brain whirring, trying to work out the appropriate word as he knew the Saffa would not be very right on) coloured servants.

"Oh no" came the shocked reply, "we had blacks for that."

This is down to a difference in language use (as well as a difference in politics.) In South Africa the word "Coloured" (with a capital C) refers - or used to refer - to people of mixed African + European descent (possibly also with some SE Asian heritage too). Just one of apartheid's many madnesses was the belief that 'obviously' people of that descent were 'neither Black (African) nor White' and so had to be separately classified for the system to 'make sense'. There were ludicrous scenes of people having their hair 'tested' and so on, to decide if they were "Black or Coloured". It's largely fallen out of favour now and most people of that sector of society would now call themselves Black (but some still prefer 'Coloured' or even 'Cape Coloured' - and there are some Black South Africans who don't accept that mixed race people should use the term for themselves either.) It is/was something parallel to the use of the term 'Creole' in the southern US. Racism is a mental illness pt 18,00001.

Similarly - it's fighting talk now, and it was never exactly free of racism ever, but I knew plenty of people of mixed race in the UK who didn't have a problem describing themselves, or being described by other people (whether Black, White or Asian) as 'half caste' in the 1970s and 80s. These days, completely bang out of order.

 

[story]

I say Black & Brown people, as do a lot of others round these parts including Black and Brown people. That’s probably no good for official documents and formal writing though.

Back in the 70s and early 80s “half caste” was generally used for mixed race people. I don’t remember it being used as an insult, it seemed to be a neutral term at the time, also used by mixed race people. I think bi-racial is also used today, especially in the US (although being anything other than Black or white over there is a fairly recent development).

I do remember being glad we had an alternative to “half caste” though, so I guess it did feel loaded or problematic to me even though I didn’t think about why or how.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Would hear it in 80s/90s Dublin.

A few times in London up until left and once over this part of the world. Colleague in London used it, not realising it's not on. They also tended to describe black Londoners as "West Indian". Believe it or not, he was genuinely surprised when pointed out to him that the terms weren't acceptable, or correct in the latter case. He's in his late 60s now.

Last time heard the former was just a few years ago by a mate in his 30s. He did ask if he was using the correct term.

When I was a kid in 1960s/70s London, most of the black kids at my schools were from Jamaica, and we called them West Indian.

 

[ouirdeaux]

Yep. Asian here. I used to use 'black' but got told-off on here for not being proper black, so it's asian, if anything.

I don't know many (any?) black or asian people who actually care, as long as whoever is saying it isn't being intentionally disrepectful.

This is a white folk thing!

It depends. I knew a black American in Berlin who didn't want to be called black. He was a person of colour. I don't know whether he insisted on referring to other people being of colour if they preferred the term black, but he was very dogmatic about things.

A housemate of mine who was black Caribbean didn't like it if people didn't refer to Asians as being black, and it was worse if Asians said they weren't black, because that was refusing to reognise racism. Once on my lunch break in the City, a suited Asian man stormed past me with the most furious face I've ever seen, and shouted at me, 'An Indian is not a nigger!' I'm guessing that he was Indian, and someone had just called him that, but he was gone before I could say anything.

Frankly, I wonder if there would be less racism about if people stopped using 'black' and 'white', given that they're not accurate. Black people aren't black, they're varying shades of brown. White people are generally that weird red-pink-orange shade that doesn't really correspond to anything else, apart from maybe the FT. They're not even off-white, ffs.

 

[Brainaddict]

This is an aside, but the inclusion of indigenous people in any descriptor in this country is an interesting one. I initially thought it was a bad idea because only the BNP talk about being indigenous here. But I realised that the UK created a lot of the colonies in which indigenous people are oppressed, and because they're so far away it's easy for us to ignore them. But maybe we shouldn't.

 

[Brainaddict]

All the black people I know personally refer to themselves as Black, regardless of where their parents and grandparents came from. All the Asian people I know of refer to themselves by their parents/grandparents nation of origin, ie as Indians, Pakistani, Chinese or Filipino though the majority of them and all the black people I know were born in the UK. Mrs Q's Mum who comes from the Philippines refers to her half-Filipina children and her quarter-Filipina grandchildren as Mestizos which is a Spanish word that Cebuano has hijacked and now means people not of pure Filipino ethnic descent. Son Q's oldest and closest friend has a white father and a black mother, we mostly refer to him as Tim but who has referred to himself as mixed-race, I haven't asked him (and don't intend to) but I have the feeling he would consider half-caste insulting.

I think this is what I'm realising. That if nearly all black people call themselves black and a few hundred London activists use 'people of colour' then maybe we should go with black (and Asian, Latino etc).

 

[Brainaddict]

Oxfam published a guide at the beginning of the year which you can download.

That guide uses 'people of colour' quite extensively but I think it reflects the post-BLM moment when it was the phrase of the moment.

 

[kalidarkone]

I refer to myself as Black or a Person of Colour. That's my Umbrella term.

 

[belboid]

This is down to a difference in language use (as well as a difference in politics.) In South Africa the word "Coloured" (with a capital C) refers - or used to refer - to people of mixed African + European descent (possibly also with some SE Asian heritage too). Just one of apartheid's many madnesses was the belief that 'obviously' people of that descent were 'neither Black (African) nor White' and so had to be separately classified for the system to 'make sense'. There were ludicrous scenes of people having their hair 'tested' and so on, to decide if they were "Black or Coloured". It's largely fallen out of favour now and most people of that sector of society would now call themselves Black (but some still prefer 'Coloured' or even 'Cape Coloured' - and there are some Black South Africans who don't accept that mixed race people should use the term for themselves either.) It is/was something parallel to the use of the term 'Creole' in the southern US. Racism is a mental illness pt 18,00001.

Similarly - it's fighting talk now, and it was never exactly free of racism ever, but I knew plenty of people of mixed race in the UK who didn't have a problem describing themselves, or being described by other people (whether Black, White or Asian) as 'half caste' in the 1970s and 80s. These days, completely bang out of order.

iirr, Gandhi was classified as 'coloured' during his time there. It was, as you say, anyone of mixed heritage, that couldn't be classed as 'white' nor as black African. Quite a few (most I think) of the MP's in the reserved coloured section of the parliament were of Indian origin.

Talking of 'multiple heritage' and 'mixed race' - there have been some fascinating discussions over the history of the terms and the ideas behind them. Someone mentioned Racecraft, which is a superb book on the subject, both on the question of race/heritage and on creating multiple subgroups of 'blackness.'

 

[friendofdorothy]

Some one I know - who is a proper academic prof - uses the term 'people racialised as black'

 

[8ball]

Some one I know - who is a proper academic prof - uses the term 'people racialised as black'

Or ‘prab’ for short.

See also “people racialised as white nationalists”.

 

[Brainaddict]

Some one I know - who is a proper academic prof - uses the term 'people racialised as black'

I've used the term 'racialised groups' for groups, it would sound weird for individuals.

 

[platinumsage]

Some one I know - who is a proper academic prof - uses the term 'people racialised as black'

UCU refer to lots of people as black:

"UCU uses the term ‘black’ in a political sense to refer to people who are descended, through one or
both parents, from Africa, the Caribbean, Asia (the middle-East to China) and Latin America. It refers to
those from a visible minority who have a shared experience of oppression. The word is used to foster a
sense of solidarity and empowerment."

It's pretty alienating if you ask me, especially as the sector contains a huge proportion of people defined thusly who are relatively recent arrivals to the UK and haven't spent 30+ years being familiar with the UK left and their language.

 

[Brainaddict]

But if people consider it an insult to be called 'black' they should probably have a long hard think.

Calling Latin American people black is an interesting one though. A lot of the elites (from which many of those in university here will come) are very Euro-descended and distinctly pale in hue. But it's also true that almost no-one there is purely Euro-descended.

 

[8ball]

But if people consider it an insult to be called 'black' they should probably have a long hard think.

 

[Brainaddict]

Obviously you might consider it incorrect to be called 'black', but I am raising a suspicion that some people react badly to it because they consider black people to be inferior to whatever they would name their own ethnic group.

 

[Brainaddict]

Anyway, back to 'people of colour', I think it's still unclear if it has peaked yet, and whether it will survive as a term in the UK. If that Oxfam guide is anything to by it's a long way from fading away, but ultimately the test of it is whether many people want to apply it to themselves.

 

[8ball]

Obviously you might consider it incorrect to be called 'black', but I am raising a suspicion that some people react badly to it because they consider black people to be inferior to whatever they would name their own ethnic group.

I'm not talking about "correctness", but I'm wondering whether you would tell a 70 year old mixed race person that they need to think long and hard about what they refer to themselves as.

 

[platinumsage]

But if people consider it an insult to be called 'black' they should probably have a long hard think.

Why? Isn't it a bit like misgendering? You think you're expressing your gender very obviously yet someone insists on referring to you as a different gender. That's perplexing at the very least, and the recipient may at least wonder whether it's being done with the deliberate intention to insult.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

UCU refer to lots of people as black:

I would not think of referring to someone of (say) chinese heritage as 'black' unless it was clear to me that a reasonable number of them say that's ok / their preferred term, but it's not for me to say that how individuals choose to identify is right or wrong.

i think some policy-makers blithely assume there's one cohesive and united [people who are not white] community, and i'm not convinced it's as simple as that. while there are interests in common, and accepting that it suits some political positions to stir up division, i'm not sure that there really is one 'community'. i have observed low level incidents involving people from different ethnic / racial groups where behaviour of one would generally be regarded as racist if they were white, and we have asian heritage politicians at cabinet level who have come out with statements that would be called out as racist if a white politician made them.

i have seen the argument that there was more of a united community spirit when there was a lot more overt / street level racism and a need to stand together in self defence. (some similarities with the question of whether there's one cohesive LGBTQ+ community)

 

[Duncan2]

I used to think black people would not object to being referred to as African because my friend originally from Guinea preferred to be so described but such is very far from being the case as I subsequently was to discover

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I used to think black people would not object to being referred to as African because my friend originally from Guinea preferred to be so described but such is very far from being the case as I subsequently was to discover

Heh. Try referring to someone from the Caribbean as African.