The status of terms 'people of colour' and BIPOC in the UK

[kalidarkone]

I always thought if you were born in Britain you were British. Was always the far right arguing otherwise. And African-British has never been a thing like it is in the States with African-American.

That is because of the different history and way the black Carribean came to the UK. Via slavery in the Carribean colonies and then Windrush era and onwards.

Totally different History and experiences following being enslaved.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I thought “coloured” was also a no no?

There's a big difference between people of colour and coloured.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Still hear (albeit rarely) the occasional person use the term "half caste".

Hate that fucking term, having grown up being called it (and half breed). I also dislike when people talk about us being half white/ etc. We're a blend ffs.

 

[8ball]

We're a blend ffs.

I see where you’re going with that, but it also kind of implies everyone else is a refined single malt.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I see where you’re going with that, but it also kind of implies everyone else is a refined single malt.

Only if you liken humans to booze.

 

[8ball]

Only if you liken humans to booze.

Or tea, or coffee.. (well the single malt thing doesn’t really apply in that case).

I prefer the chocolate chip cookie analogy (though that’s more a “colourism” thing).

 

[kalidarkone]

Hate that fucking term, having grow up being called it and half breed. I also dislike when people talk about us being half white/ etc. We're a blend ffs.

Exactly.
Also half caste pertains to the Hindu Caste system.......antiquated, inaccurate and implies not belonging anywhere......

Luckily my parents told me never to entertain that BS.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

There's a big difference between people of colour and coloured.

I never suggested there wasn't. I was simply adding it to a list that krtek started writing.

 

[8ball]

Exactly.
Also half caste pertains to the Hindu Caste system.......antiquated, inaccurate and implies not belonging anywhere......

Luckily my parents told me never to entertain that BS.

Obv half caste has dodgy history, but “half x” or “quarter y” (however people want to slice it up by parentage / grandparentage) doesn’t seem problematic to me.

 

[kalidarkone]

Obv half caste has dodgy history, but “half x” or “quarter y” (however people want to slice it up by parentage / grandparentage) doesn’t seem problematic to me.

I have no problem with explaining the proportions of my heritage. I don't like ignorant terminology.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Also half caste pertains to the Hindu Caste system.......antiquated, inaccurate and implies not belonging anywhere......

Really obvious shit that I was today-old before I realised.

 

[8ball]

Really obvious shit that I was today-old before I realised.

Tbf there are several caste systems out there.

 

[newme]

Tbf there are several caste systems out there.

Heard various US states are now looking at legislating against caste issues due to Indian workers in the country.

 

[8ball]

Heard various US states are now looking at legislating against caste issues due to Indian workers in the country.

About 25 years ago I worked at an IT company where one programmer was regularly quite horrible to his manager and it was no secret that that the programmer was one or two levels up the system (I think the manager was one above the bottom), and it led to this sense of superiority and impunity.

 

[newme]

About 25 years ago I worked at an IT company where one programmer was regularly quite horrible to his manager and it was no secret that that the programmer was one or two levels up the system (I think the manager was one above the bottom), and it led to this sense of superiority and impunity.

Yeh that's the sort of thing I meant. Think IT was mentioned since the visa thing over there. People kicking off cos of being 'undesirables' multiple levels above them etc. People go on about class in the UK which is shitty enough but hundreds of years later being looked down at cos an ancestor did an essential role seems at least as bad.

 

[brixtonscot]

This is down to a difference in language use (as well as a difference in politics.) In South Africa the word "Coloured" (with a capital C) refers - or used to refer - to people of mixed African + European descent (possibly also with some SE Asian heritage too). Just one of apartheid's many madnesses was the belief that 'obviously' people of that descent were 'neither Black (African) nor White' and so had to be separately classified for the system to 'make sense'. There were ludicrous scenes of people having their hair 'tested' and so on, to decide if they were "Black or Coloured". It's largely fallen out of favour now and most people of that sector of society would now call themselves Black (but some still prefer 'Coloured' or even 'Cape Coloured' - and there are some Black South Africans who don't accept that mixed race people should use the term for themselves either.) It is/was something parallel to the use of the term 'Creole' in the southern US. Racism is a mental illness pt 18,00001.

Similarly - it's fighting talk now, and it was never exactly free of racism ever, but I knew plenty of people of mixed race in the UK who didn't have a problem describing themselves, or being described by other people (whether Black, White or Asian) as 'half caste' in the 1970s and 80s. These days, completely bang out of order.

The second branch are those amoung the people branded as ‘Coloured’ who can trace part of their ancestry to the San and the Khoena and San clans and express their desire to REVIVE this identity affinity. Around 30% of those classified as Coloured were recorded as Khoena and San at the time of the 1904 census – the last to record separate figures. They are sometimes referred to as the ‘revivalists’.

CAPE INDIGENES

The Cape Indigene People Remembered One way of celebrating Cape Indigene heritage is to spread an understanding of the terms and wonderful clan names of the indigenous groups. The more accurate – K…

camissapeople.wordpress.com

 

[brixtonscot]

Some one I know - who is a proper academic prof - uses the term 'people racialised as black'

Aren't all concepts of "races" a consequence of being "racialised" as such - whatever the "race" is ?
All "races" are a consquence of racism

 

[two sheds]

Can I slightly digress and ask what people think about Fiona Bruce referring to someone in the audience as "the black guy in the middle"? I think she said that she normally refers to people by their clothing but couldn't see his.

Fiona Bruce apologises for referring to man as ‘the black guy’ on air

Presenter contacted Roberto Gocan, 35, about her comment during Question Time in Wolverhampton

www.theguardian.com

Eta: this is his reaction afterwards:

“She has given her public explanation which was clearly worded from the statement they put out,” he added. “I’ll just say it was similar to that. Micro-aggressions should be highlighted across the board.

Any thoughts as to which term she should have used?

 

[Serge Forward]

If she'd been consistent and referred to others as 'the white guy' etc then she'd maybe have some excuse.... though racialising the whole audience wouldn't be a good look either. Normally they refer to people in the audience according to clothes, glasses, etc. She's a twat though.

 

[two sheds]

I was wondering about another situation where a presenter referred to someone as "the white guy" amid two black people, and that doesn't work either but for different reasons.

Spur of the moment I can imagine it - she couldn't see his clothing and didn't want to ignore him wanting to speak - but not sure how she could have done it hence the question.

 

[mango5]

I've been corrected by black and white people for referring to myself as brown.
I don't have 'my own group'. I used to describe myself as English, now I'm just a Londoner and will not indulge conversations about my 'heritage'.
In answer to the OP, you can't control the reactions or read the minds of your future readers. Terms change in context. Explain your choices and be consistent.

You could look at decolonising stuff that's all the rage in the academy these days, but that won't necessarily age well either.

 

[zahir]

This is down to a difference in language use (as well as a difference in politics.) In South Africa the word "Coloured" (with a capital C) refers - or used to refer - to people of mixed African + European descent (possibly also with some SE Asian heritage too). Just one of apartheid's many madnesses was the belief that 'obviously' people of that descent were 'neither Black (African) nor White' and so had to be separately classified for the system to 'make sense'. There were ludicrous scenes of people having their hair 'tested' and so on, to decide if they were "Black or Coloured". It's largely fallen out of favour now and most people of that sector of society would now call themselves Black (but some still prefer 'Coloured' or even 'Cape Coloured' - and there are some Black South Africans who don't accept that mixed race people should use the term for themselves either.) It is/was something parallel to the use of the term 'Creole' in the southern US. Racism is a mental illness pt 18,00001.

Similarly - it's fighting talk now, and it was never exactly free of racism ever, but I knew plenty of people of mixed race in the UK who didn't have a problem describing themselves, or being described by other people (whether Black, White or Asian) as 'half caste' in the 1970s and 80s. These days, completely bang out of order.

The reaction in the US to a South African singer identifying as coloured.

Tyla’s racial identity: South African singer sparks culture war

The term "coloured" is a slur in the US, but for millions of South Africans it is part of their identity.

www.bbc.co.uk

Caught in a culture war, South Africa's hottest music sensation Tyla is in the crossfire of an online debate over the word she uses to describe her racial identity - "coloured". Before her rise to fame, the 21-year-old made a video proudly talking about her mixed-raced heritage on TikTok. In it she slicks her coily hair into Bantu knots, while donning a traditional beaded necklace, with the words, "I am a coloured South African" splashed across the clip like a badge of honour. The star says this means that she "comes from a lot of different cultures". It is a simple video intended to share a part of herself with her audience. But instead, her racial identity has stoked flames across the internet, most notably, in the US.

When Ms Chutel went to Columbia University in New York she found her identity, like Tyla, was the topic of conversation after she introduced herself as a coloured woman from South Africa on her first day. It did not go down well with her classmates; her roommate pulled her aside and said she had made the American students feel uncomfortable. She was forced to defend her own identity, background and culture while trying to assuage the discomfort of others. "I understand that it is a slur, but that's not the only story here," she says with a deep sigh.

People who disregard Tyla's heritage, she says, are also "erasing and dismissing my existence and my family's existence, and the way we understand, perceive and navigate the world". Ms Dooms agrees and says that even before the Tyla controversy, defending her community had been a constant: "We are fighting for the legitimacy of what we have built. What we have created, the culture we have made." To those in America targeting Tyla, she says: "To have the audacity to question somebody's self-identification and replace it with your own - that's ridiculous. You are not progressive."

 

[SpookyFrank]

Had a member of staff ask me the other day how we should refer to 'those' people nowadays. Are you allowed to call them...black? Yes you're allowed to call black people black I said. I didn't ask what alternatives she might have been considering.

 

[SpookyFrank]

You could look at decolonising stuff that's all the rage in the academy these days, but that won't necessarily age well either.

We had a CPD session on 'decolonising the curriculum' a couple of weeks ago. It was done by two white people. I gave it a miss.

 

[brogdale]

Had a member of staff ask me the other day how we should refer to 'those' people nowadays. Are you allowed to call them...black? Yes you're allowed to call black people black I said. I didn't ask what alternatives she might have been considering.

Is she some sort of time traveller from the 1950s?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Is she some sort of time traveller from the 1950s?

She's in her 60's so probably remembers 'coloured' being widely used but also there have been multiple decades since where it hasn't been.

She didn't have a bad word to say about anyone and only wanted to get things right, but you'd think it would have occurred to her to check before now. I probably should have explained that it's also fine not to comment on a person's skin colour at all, but that might have been too big of a leap for one day.

 

[Brainaddict]

We had a CPD session on 'decolonising the curriculum' a couple of weeks ago. It was done by two white people. I gave it a miss.

You're opening a very large can of worms there, should you wish to look inside. Two questions arise from it. Who is able to understand the position of the oppressed? (Is it only the oppressed, in which case they are a bit on their own). And who should do the work of unwinding oppression? Do we give that burden only to the oppressed to add to their other burdens?

I know it was a throwaway comment, but many people have ended up in some accidentally quite odd positions with your logic.

 

[mango5]

We had a CPD session on 'decolonising the curriculum' a couple of weeks ago. It was done by two white people. I gave it a miss.

You were probably right, but I don't think it's fair to use their skin colour as the key factor here. I'm assuming you are white. Did you tell the organisers?

 

[Spymaster]

What does "decolonising" the curriculum entail?

 

[brogdale]

What does "decolonising" the curriculum entail?

Loads of institutions have put out their own take on this; here's Liverpool's (chosen because it is quite short).

https://www.liverpool.ac.uk/media/l...he-curriculum/decolonising-the-curriculum.pdf