PTK
Paul Kegan
Some people would be of the opinion that someone who has an Accountant is financially privileged. Which I suppose is why you sneer at people who play the lottery.
Oceangate's Titan. The Bayesian yacht. Why do the deaths of rich people matter more than poor people?
- Thread starter rasputin
- Start date
Wkdloz
Member
The crew except for the cook (which was reported) appear to have been saved.
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
I didn't have one when I was self employed, but how much do you suppose an accountant costs if you are using them to do your annual accounts/tax return? Its not a lot of money, or wasn't when I looked into it. I'll also wager I was earning less at the time than a lot of people round here.
PTK
Paul Kegan
I am sure that you are right. To many people, being in the sort of job in which you need an accountant sounds privliged. I understand that in practice such a person may not be earning much, but they would seem to have more freedom than people on PAYE. More freedom to determine the conditions of their job. Again, I realise that this may often not be the case.
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Calling yourself a limited company and giving yourself dividends instead of wages is a grift that only saves you money if you're well into six figures for annual income. So it's only an option if you're not struggling to make ends meet and can definitely afford to pay your fucking taxes.
But no, not everyone who uses an accountant is rich. If your business does actual work involving more materials or equipment than just a macbook pro, an espresso machine and a coke spoon, there's a lot of money in and money out to keep track of.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
I can only imagine that you've never experienced poverty if you think that people can't imagine what it's like to be poor.
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
I don't sneer at people who play the lottery, if you want to play it then go ahead but with odds of winning at 54 million to 1 for the top prize and even 7.5 million to 1 for the second prize. Realistically if you buy the ticket half an hour before the draw the chances of you dying in that 30 mins are far far greater than you winning the prize unless you're really aiming for £25? or actually care about money raised for good causes.
If someone is genuinely short of money (and lots are) is spending £200 a year on a daydream really good value for limited funds? Or are you buying into the hope of getting rich perhaps?
Offering you a free chance to hurl more abuse at me Spooky Old Chap, the reason I became a limited company was because I had no choice. All of my clients were blue chip companies none of whom would consider having anything to do with someone who wasn't a VAT registered limited company be it me, the guy who came in to paint the offices at the weekend or the person cleaning the bogs.
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
I am of course talking about global poverty rather than UK poverty, I suspect you know that but just wish to try and make a point.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Well, I was responding to this:
so, no, that wasn't clear at all. You invited response from anyone who disagreed and I responded. I don't know where you get your ideas about empathy from, but personally, most people that I know instinctively empathise with the under-dog, the poor and the disadvantaged. Have you considered that maybe you're projecting your own empathy for those that steal from their fellow man onto "many people"?
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
OK Fair Point so let's clarify things a little, I'm sure most people empathise with people they know or people they can see themselves easily in their place so feeling greater empathy for the local homeless/disadvantaged is a given.
I don't believe it alters my basic statement though. In the case of the yacht sinking people will feel more empathy for the few people who have died because they have been named and the audience can more easily see themselves in the same position. (and possibly yes some of the press may want to actively promote that sympathy)
On the other hand the migrant boats that sink near daily crossing the Med (which people are getting all heated about because they aren't getting the same coverage) do not attract empathy because they are just faceless masses and their names will never be known.
Disagree. I've already given my take. To slightly reiterate, it's not because people can more easily empathize with the rich. if anything, the reverse is probably true for anyone who's struggled paying rent or stared at empty cupboards, they're a bit closer to the precarity of migrants. Rather it is to do with what I mistakenly called compassion fatigue (not something I've made up BTW but I can't think of the correct term. Relating to not being able to process large numbers of deaths and being more moved by 1 or 2.) And the news favouring the novel.
That said, I haven't heard anyone talking about this yacht disaster, . Where as the Titan exercised conversation IRL. Though TBH that was probably cos I instigated the conversation as I found it compelling...
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
At last a rational argument rather than cheap jibes
I wonder how this worked. They were all up on deck and thought fuck this and jumped to relative safety. Presume they may have tried to warn / advise the passengers and chef to do likewise. Maybe they didn't have time...
I saw an interview on RTE with Lynch the other day. He had two hearing aids.
He probably did not hear the commotion on the yacht. Or the downpour. Or the mast breaking. Or any emergency alarms etc.
As someone who has a massive fear of water, I cannot imagine anything worse than waking up knowing you are going to drown or waking up drowning.
Whether you're a billionaire or a poor immigrant on a boat...that must be awful... and its a horrible death.
He probably did not hear the commotion on the yacht. Or the downpour. Or the mast breaking. Or any emergency alarms etc.
As someone who has a massive fear of water, I cannot imagine anything worse than waking up knowing you are going to drown or waking up drowning.
Whether you're a billionaire or a poor immigrant on a boat...that must be awful... and its a horrible death.
VivaE
Well-Known Member
It is, and I'm not sure why the victims have generated the debate they have on here. As if sympathy for them implies lack of sympathy or empathy for others.
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
I suspect a lot of people don't realise how bad poverty in the UK is, and how much it's been rising for years.
Many people are so far below the poverty line that even reaching it seems an impossibility. That's how bad things are.
When you've never experienced it, it's probably very difficult to imagine stuff such as long periods of biting cold, constant worry about getting evicted, when you'll next be able to eat and experience of literally being homeless, isolation and shame (just a few examples).
Some stats:
More than 1 in 5 people in the UK (22%) were in poverty in 2021/22 – 14.4 million people. This included:
In 2021/22, 6 million people - or 4 in 10 people in poverty – were in ‘very deep’ poverty, with an income far below the standard poverty line. More than twice as many (over 12 million people) had experienced very deep poverty in at least one year between 2017–18 and 2020–21.
Between 2019/20 and 2021/22, the average person in poverty had an income 29% below the poverty line, with the gap up from 23% between 1994/95 and 1996/97. The poorest families – those living in very deep poverty – had an average income that was 59% below the poverty line, with this gap increasing by around two-thirds over the past 25 years.
UK Poverty 2024: The essential guide to understanding poverty in the UK
Many people are so far below the poverty line that even reaching it seems an impossibility. That's how bad things are.
When you've never experienced it, it's probably very difficult to imagine stuff such as long periods of biting cold, constant worry about getting evicted, when you'll next be able to eat and experience of literally being homeless, isolation and shame (just a few examples).
Some stats:
More than 1 in 5 people in the UK (22%) were in poverty in 2021/22 – 14.4 million people. This included:
- 8.1 million (or around 2 in 10) working-age adults
- 4.2 million (or nearly 3 in 10) children
- 2.1 million (or around 1 in 6) pensioners.
In 2021/22, 6 million people - or 4 in 10 people in poverty – were in ‘very deep’ poverty, with an income far below the standard poverty line. More than twice as many (over 12 million people) had experienced very deep poverty in at least one year between 2017–18 and 2020–21.
Between 2019/20 and 2021/22, the average person in poverty had an income 29% below the poverty line, with the gap up from 23% between 1994/95 and 1996/97. The poorest families – those living in very deep poverty – had an average income that was 59% below the poverty line, with this gap increasing by around two-thirds over the past 25 years.
UK Poverty 2024: The essential guide to understanding poverty in the UK
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
Who's talking about incorporating your company though?
Plenty of sole traders/partnerships/LLPs about.
It would have made absolutely no sense for me to become a limited company, for example.
Depends if they were cleaning/prepping or not.
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
As for the first bolded statement certainly the impression I get from reading many of the posts on this and similar threads yes, not saying the heated up is not justified of course but certainly some posters get very emotional about this.
As for the second bolded statement sadly I think that is true yes, I think the bulk of Europe's (not just the UK) population don't care enough about people drowning in the Med for any major demands to intervene to stop it to ever gain any traction.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
OK, but 'heated up' is usually associated with unnecessary anger and, surely, if anyone doesn't get emotional about the drivers, risks and losses connected with refugees crossing the channel, there's something wrong with them? Do you really think that lack of empathy for these refugees derives from the fact that they are just faceless masses and their names will never be known? I reckon it's more likely coming from fundemantally racist positions, tbh.
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
OK maybe heated up is the wrong phrase would you prefer emotional?
Yes I don't doubt racism is heavily involved along with insecurity, a not very rational fear of being replaced, loads of reasons none of which are very defensible. As for faceless masses that's pretty key I think. It's easier to hate and even more so not care about people if you don't know anything about them.
PTK
Paul Kegan
Stalin is supposed to have said something to the effect that the death of one person is a tragedy, but the death of a million is a statistic.
I do think that the instruments for the reproduction of ideology, or the mass media as they are better known, sentimentalise tragic deaths today in a way that they did not some decades ago.
I feel for family and friends of people who are murdered or die in disasters, but is it necessary for them to be quoted about how they feel?
Are we incapable of sympathy without knowing of the hobbies that the dead person enjoyed?
What does it add to our understanding for neighbours to be quoted about how nothing like this normally happens in this quiet street?
And, of course, the classic “he was always a quiet chap. You would never have known that he was a mass murderer”.
When there is a death that is deemed to be Important, there are pages and pages on it, most of which tells you very little.
I was disgusted by the excessive coverage of the death of David Bowie. The Guardian not only had I don’t-know-how-many pages of coverage, but also a special multi-page supplement. I must admit that I did not thoroughly read it all, but nowhere did I find anything about Bowie’s explicit advocacy of fascism in the mid-1970s, which was one of the things that prompted the formation of Rock Against Racism.
Sorry for going off at a bit of a tangent.
I do think that the instruments for the reproduction of ideology, or the mass media as they are better known, sentimentalise tragic deaths today in a way that they did not some decades ago.
I feel for family and friends of people who are murdered or die in disasters, but is it necessary for them to be quoted about how they feel?
Are we incapable of sympathy without knowing of the hobbies that the dead person enjoyed?
What does it add to our understanding for neighbours to be quoted about how nothing like this normally happens in this quiet street?
And, of course, the classic “he was always a quiet chap. You would never have known that he was a mass murderer”.
When there is a death that is deemed to be Important, there are pages and pages on it, most of which tells you very little.
I was disgusted by the excessive coverage of the death of David Bowie. The Guardian not only had I don’t-know-how-many pages of coverage, but also a special multi-page supplement. I must admit that I did not thoroughly read it all, but nowhere did I find anything about Bowie’s explicit advocacy of fascism in the mid-1970s, which was one of the things that prompted the formation of Rock Against Racism.
Sorry for going off at a bit of a tangent.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
We didn't know anything about him. We've learned he's white, he's rich, he wears hearing aids, he's one of us.
Refugee boats going down are not presented in the same way. We are fed immigrants are a danger.
It's manufactured news. To suit the hegemony. One is to aspire to and is tragic. The other is a danger to the fabric of society.
Imagined or created empathy is missing the point entirely.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
They survived and are going to he charged with manslaughter.
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