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Sara Sharif murder: ‘sadist’ father and stepmother jailed for life

No it's not. It's why we don't sentence people to 30 years for littering.
We don't do a lot of things. But i suppose you think it proportionate for people to be jailed for joint enterprise, where many of those imprisoned knew nothing of any plan to wound or kill. You presumably think it proportionate for people climbing on a bridge and halting traffic to be jailed for years. You must think it proportionate that hundreds of people jailed with indeterminate sentences are still there many years after the law that saw them imprisoned has been abandoned.

Your idea of proportionate leaves a lot to be desired.
 
This stuff (pentobarbital) certainly does, and was one of the drugs used in the lethal injection process for many States but has become harder and harder to procure from manufacturers who don’t want to sell it for this purpose.
Most other countries would just nationalise the manufacturer but that's not really an option for the US.
 
In that case, I don't see a place for it within a legal system. You killed my child, so I kill your child. That's retribution. An eye for an eye and we all go blind.

Section 57 of the sentencing guidelines uses the terms “punishment, the reduction of crime, reparation, rehabilitation and protection of the public”.

The second and last of those both basically seem like a mealy-mouthed way of saying “containment” while gesturing toward ab idea of deterrence without saying it out loud for fear of being asked to back it up.

And reparation isn’t something I can really see in the way we currently do things, except in that silly “you has offended the Kween!!” way that the right-wing press likes to trot out from time to time.
 
Most other countries would just nationalise the manufacturer but that's not really an option for the US.

That’s an option I hadn’t thought of.

It’s been a while since they nationalised the Alaskan Northern Railroad so isn’t likely to occur to them.

The American Correctional Chemical Company has a nice, if dark, ring to it.
 
We don't do a lot of things. But i suppose you think it proportionate for people to be jailed for joint enterprise, where many of those imprisoned knew nothing of any plan to wound or kill. You presumably think it proportionate for people climbing on a bridge and halting traffic to be jailed for years. You must think it proportionate that hundreds of people jailed with indeterminate sentences are still there many years after the law that saw them imprisoned has been abandoned.

Some bizarre presumptions about what I think there, but you're making the wrong argument anyway.

The principle of proportionality of sentencing is thoroughly established. Individual's thoughts on what constitutes proportionality may differ, as may its practical application. Disproportionate sentencing happens all the time.
 
This stuff (pentobarbital) certainly does, and was one of the drugs used in the lethal injection process for many States but has become harder and harder to procure from manufacturers who don’t want to sell it for this purpose.

A number of States actually do use it as a backup drug if they can get it.

I was oversimplifying a bit and talking about the most used protocol, but it does vary a bit. Increasingly because of supply issues, but previously it was often the case that different States just preferred different drugs for some reason. Probably to show they weren’t the Fed’s bitch or something.
No, it actually doesn't kill.

Pentobarbitol only induces the state of unconsciousness, just as would happen if you were being put to sleep prior to surgery and before the other anaesthetic agents you are given kept you anaesthetised throughout.

It's the other drugs - usually a muscle relaxant (which paralyses) and potassium chloride (which stops the heart) and actually brings about death.

If you give someone pentobarbitol - or any of the similar associated drugs, such as Thiopentone, they will just wake up again fairly quickly. Understandably though, manufacturers who make a drug to be used therapeutically are unlikely to want to be associated with capital punishment and killing people, so they render it unavailable for that purpose.
 
No, it actually doesn't kill.
Pentobarbital (PB) is a euthanasia drug in doses of 2 to 10 grams, causing death within 15–30 minutes.

 
Pentobarbital (PB) is a euthanasia drug in doses of 2 to 10 grams, causing death within 15–30 minutes.

It would require a very large dose and would take too long. It is not appropriate for inducing death because it is intended to be short-acting.
 
No, it actually doesn't kill.

Pentobarbitol only induces the state of unconsciousness, just as would happen if you were being put to sleep prior to surgery and before the other anaesthetic agents you are given kept you anaesthetised throughout.

It's the other drugs - usually a muscle relaxant (which paralyses) and potassium chloride (which stops the heart) and actually brings about death.

If you give someone pentobarbitol - or any of the similar associated drugs, such as Thiopentone, they will just wake up again fairly quickly. Understandably though, manufacturers who make a drug to be used therapeutically are unlikely to want to be associated with capital punishment and killing people, so they render it unavailable for that purpose.

Pentobarbital in doses upwards of 2 grams causes death in about 20 minutes (with some variance depending on weight, age etc.).

If the part of your brain that keeps you breathing goes to sleep, you don’t wake up again. An anaesthetist friend of mine commonly says putting people to sleep is easy - it’s doing it in a way that they wake up again reliably that is hard, and that part is how he earns his money.

You don’t get many failed dog euthanisations.

Regarding size of dose, I don’t have the knowledge to say whether a central line would be required. Either way, I’d choose it over the US cocktail administered by non medics.
 
Some bizarre presumptions about what I think there, but you're making the wrong argument anyway.

The principle of proportionality of sentencing is thoroughly established. Individual's thoughts on what constitutes proportionality may differ, as may its practical application. Disproportionate sentencing happens all the time.
Desperate stuff there spy, the first and third sentences of your second paragraph seem somewhat at odds
 
Pentobarbital in doses upwards of 2 grams causes death in about 20 minutes (with some variance depending on weight, age etc.).

If the part of your brain that keeps you breathing goes to sleep, you don’t wake up again. An anaesthetist friend of mine commonly says putting people to sleep is easy - it’s doing it in a way that they wake up again reliably that is hard, and that part is how he earns his money.

You don’t get many failed dog euthanisations.

Regarding size of dose, I don’t have the knowledge to say whether a central line would be required. Either way, I’d choose it over the US cocktail administered by non medics.
As I said, in judicial execution, it's not the induction agent which kills, it's the combination of the other two drugs. The induction agent is intended to minimise the risk of the victim struggling and because the muscle relaxant which stops breathing can cause pain and distress. Some of course would think that this is perfectly okay, but that's a whole different argument. Failure to induce anaesthesia competently - e.g because the cannula is not inserted correctly into a vein can result in a slow and distressing death because the other drugs will eventually work even if not administered intravenously - but the victim will have been conscious for most of that time. I doubt if someone is incapable of even inserting an IV cannula correctly, that they would have the skills to insert a central line. I don't know that too many doctors would be willing to participate in judicial executions.

My husband is an anaesthetist and I have worked in operating theatres for most of my working life, so I know plenty about anaesthesia. The induction agent is only intended to render someone unconscious, so that any other necessary drugs, such as a muscle relaxant for certain types of surgery where paralysis is required, can be administered without discomfort or distress.

Your friend is correct though, that reversing the anaesthetic is the really clever part - and that is particularly the case when a muscle relaxant or any form of opioid or benzodiazepine drug has been used.
 
Spy seems to be saying there is an accepted principle which the system commonly fails to uphold.

It doesn’t look like a contradiction.

Indeed. And it goes both ways.

There's frequent uproar about sentencing that's considered unduly lenient or harsh, and appeal processes to mitigate disproportional punishment. A whole area of law devoted to upholding the principle.
 
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As I said, in judicial execution, it's not the induction agent which kills, it's the combination of the other two drugs. The induction agent is intended to minimise the risk of the victim struggling and because the muscle relaxant which stops breathing can cause pain and distress. Some of course would think that this is perfectly okay, but that's a whole different argument. Failure to induce anaesthesia competently - e.eg because the cannula is not inserted correctly into a vein can result in a slow and distressing death because the other drugs will eventually work even if not administered intravenously - but the victim will have been conscious for most of that time. I doubt if someone is incapable of even inserting an IV cannula correctly, that they would have the skills to insert a central line. I don't know that too many doctors would be willing to participate in judicial executions.

My husband is an anaesthetist and I have worked in operating theatres for most of my working life, so I know plenty about anaesthesia. The induction agent is only intended to render someone unconscious, so that any other necessary drugs, such as a muscle relaxant for certain types of surgery where paralysis is required, can be administered without discomfort or distress.

Your friend is correct though, that reversing the anaesthetic is the really clever part - and that is particularly the case when a muscle relaxant or any form of opioid or benzodiazepine drug has been used.

Yeah, to be clear I wasn’t arguing for untrained people to be putting in a central line, and I understand that with the procedure as it is now, the initial drug is not intended to be the one dealing the killing blow.

However I do think doing something as close to how we mercifully put down dogs would be better than this current pseudo-medical shambles of things ie. someone who at least knows the basics of getting the tubes in and an anaesthetic overdose as the means of death rather than using it to merely to quell any death throes that might cause distress to onlookers.

Otherwise why not be honest and just use guns?
 
Yeah, to be clear I wasn’t arguing for untrained people to be putting in a central line, and I understand that with the procedure as it is now, the initial drug is not intended to be the one dealing the killing blow.

However I do think doing something as close to how we mercifully put down dogs would be better than this current pseudo-medical shambles of things ie. someone who at least knows the basics of getting the tubes in and an anaesthetic overdose as the means of death rather than using it to merely to quell any death throes that might cause distress to onlookers.

Otherwise why not be honest and just use guns?
I'm sure the "lethal injection" method was intended to be clean, clinical and "not messy" but in fact the opposite has proved been the case on numerous occasions.

In addition, the ghoulish spectacle of having the execution witnessed is positively medieval - and it's particularly the case when it is botched so frequently. I think it was decided a long time ago in most "westernised societies" (for want of an better term) that execution was not a spectator sport and I believe this still to be the case.
 
As I said, in judicial execution, it's not the induction agent which kills, it's the combination of the other two drugs.
This may well be the case in judicial executions. This does not alter the fact that pentobarbital can kill, does kill, and is often used in suicides.
 
I'm sure the "lethal injection" method was intended to be clean, clinical and "not messy" but in fact the opposite has proved been the case on numerous occasions.

In addition, the ghoulish spectacle of having the execution witnessed is positively medieval - and it's particularly the case when it is botched so frequently. I think it was decided a long time ago in most "westernised societies" (for want of an better term) that execution was not a spectator sport and I believe this still to be the case.

Yeah, most of what I know about it is from participating in campaigns against it.

Some awful fuckups. :(
 
Indeed. And it goes both ways.

There's frequent uproar about sentencing that's considered unduly lenient or harsh, and appeal processes to mitigate disproportional punishment. A whole area of law devoted to upholding the principle.
But if you rewind you'll see you're not arguing with what I've said
 
This may well be the case in judicial executions. This does not alter the fact that pentobarbital can kill, does kill, and is often used in suicides.
I think we've already established that it can kill - and it is used in animal euthanasia but it tends not to be terribly useful in attempted suicide, not least because it is difficult to know how much to use - particularly when taken orally. If the dose is incorrect, you would just wake up again or potentially suffer adverse effects.

We were however discussing its application in terms of IV use for execution, which is what my comments have been predicated upon.
 
I think we've already established that it can kill - and it is used in animal euthanasia but it tends not to be terribly useful in attempted suicide, not least because it is difficult to know how much to use - particularly when taken orally. If the dose is incorrect, you would just wake up again or potentially suffer adverse effects.

We were however discussing its application in terms of IV use for execution, which is what my comments have been predicated upon.
So it isn't used that way now. Are you saying it couldn't be?

Most drugs are problematic when taken orally for suicide, for the reasons given. There are certainly enough successful suicides with it to suggest that it would be effective in the correct dose, which I imagine qualified professionals would be in a better position to calculate than a would-be suicide.
 
I think pretty much everyone is aware that sentencing varies with generally perceived severity of the crime, and I also think there is not a substantial proportion of the UK population that disagrees with this principle.
I'll repeat the question, which you don't seem to have understood - who is this accepted by?
 
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