Men’s violence against women and girls is a national emergency

[Red Cat]

Someone with a gun has power over someone without one, even if the gun-owner doesn't use it.

Someone can have authority even if they don't exercise it.

Dominance doesn't reside only in exercised power - for example the monarchy has dominance over its subjects.

I'd say that being in possession of a gun is an exercise of power even if the gun isn't used to shoot.

Power is a feature of a relationship, primarily, I don't see how the property of power or authority can exist if its not something that has an influence on someone else.

I'll have to think some more about it.

 

[bluescreen]

Yes, it's a relationship.

But it needn't be as much as a gun. Someone may have power just by standing there looking big. Even looking benign. People may react to the perceived power without any expressed or hinted threat.

Does a charged battery have power if it's not being used?

I don't know, just thinking aloud.

 

[danny la rouge]

There's some interesting stuff in this article including:

'As part of my research, I sat in on a meeting at a large corporation and took detailed notes on who said what. I’d left with the impression that a particular man had been the source of most of the ideas the group took up and embraced.

But as I typed out my own notes the next day, I was surprised to discover my impression was wrong. Almost all the key suggestions had originated with someone else — a woman. My notes also revealed how I was led astray: The man had spoken at greater length in support of her ideas than she had in raising them.

I wondered whether my mistaken impression was shared by others, so I sought out the eight people who’d been present, and succeeded in contacting four of the five men and all three women who participated.

I asked each one, privately, who they thought had most influenced the group. The two other women named the woman who had come up with the ideas adopted, but all the men named the man who had spoken in favor of those ideas — except that man himself. He named the woman.

She herself did not feel that he had stolen her ideas. In fact, when I asked her, she said with a laugh, “It was not one of those times when a woman says something and it’s ignored, then a man says it and it’s picked up.” Nonetheless, her contribution was underestimated by the other men in the group — and by an observer, me.'

The Truth About How Much Women Talk — and Whether Men Listen

A linguistics professor shares the facts

time.com

That’s a very good article and puts better and more explicitly what I was trying to articulate.

“In public forums, women tend to talk less, and -- to the detriment of everyone involved -- their ideas, insights and perspectives are less likely to be heard.”

“If they talk in ways associated with authority, they can be seen as too aggressive, and subject to the damning labels so readily applied to them. But if they don't -- if they hold back in these and other ways -- they risk being underestimated.”

Exactly. That’s what I want us as men to think about and talk to each other about.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Can you explain what you mean by power that isn't exercised?

In Danny's zoom meeting, he could have acted like the other two blokes and done all the talking for everyone, and not only would there have been no adverse consequences for him if he did, quite likely nobody, including Danny himself, would even have noticed the imbalance.

The fact he didn't actually do that, doesn't mean he wouldn't have been able to

We as men have power as a category, regardless of our individual actions. And we are affected by that, just as those around us are.

 

[emanymton]

One question is could/should danny have used his power more proactively to try bring the women into the conversation?

Also not to sound like I'm going "not all men" but as a somewhat shy introvert I don't really feel this myself, although I guess I benfit form it to some extent.

 

[8ball]

One question is could/should danny have used his power more proactively to try bring the women into the conversation?

This is where the gun comes in handy.

 

[HeAthen]

That’s a very good article and puts better and more explicitly what I was trying to articulate.

“In public forums, women tend to talk less, and -- to the detriment of everyone involved -- their ideas, insights and perspectives are less likely to be heard.”

“If they talk in ways associated with authority, they can be seen as too aggressive, and subject to the damning labels so readily applied to them. But if they don't -- if they hold back in these and other ways -- they risk being underestimated.”

Exactly. That’s what I want us as men to think about and talk to each other about.

This precisely. I think that men (including myself) need to accept that we are all guilty of it to differing extents and only then can we hope that our behaviour will change.

 

[kabbes]

Foucault wrote about two types of power - juridical and disciplinary. Juridical power is control — the ability to make people do things. That’s the power you have by threatening with a gun. But disciplinary power is the ability to get people to choose to do what you want them to do apparently out of their own free will. Disciplinary power is instituted through social norms and the internalisation of institutions. The patriarchy certainly operates through juridical power. But (especially these days) it operates far more though disciplinary power. That’s the power danny is taking about. And it certainly exists even when it isn’t being directly enacted.

 

[danny la rouge]

One question is could/should danny have used his power more proactively to try bring the women into the conversation?

That’s something I didn’t feel I could do in this instance for the full group as I wasn’t chairing. A woman was. Had I tried some sub chairing, I think that would have been as bad.

There were break out groups, though, and I encouraged a young woman to feed back from ours although she had assumed I would. I felt that intervention was the most I could do in the circumstances.


Footnote: it’s worth pointing out that for some men this example won’t be recognisable, if they seldom if ever experience formal meetings. I know guys who don’t have that kind of job or experience outside work.

 

[Rompipalle]

That’s something I didn’t feel I could do in this instance for the full group as I wasn’t chairing. A woman was. Had I tried some sub chairing, I think that would have been as bad.

There were break out groups, though, and I encouraged a young woman to feed back from ours although she had assumed I would. I felt that intervention was the most I could do in the circumstances.


Footnote: it’s worth pointing out that for some men this example won’t be recognisable, if they seldom if ever experience formal meetings. I know guys who don’t have that kind of job or experience outside work.

I, for one, have found your posts from today to be both interesting and reassuring.

I cannot speak for all women but it is good to know that there are some men who are sufficiently self-aware - and indeed socially aware - to recognise that there is a very real imbalance in how male and female “voices” and experiences are given different weight, on both a conscious and unconscious basis.

It is also helpful to see that this is recognised and acknowledged but the real problem is getting the message across to those men who resolutely refuse to recognise that the issue even exists and who think that merely “shouting down” women who assert their voices is the appropriate response.