knife violence and murders among youth

[ska invita]

Disrupt the gangs, move problem individuals/families, go into schools, more coppers on the streets.

a couple of thoughts about moving families;

-this is already happening as a 'solution' to social problems via urban councils knocking down social housing - brushing the problems away is a big motivating factor in those policies
-if young people, especially involved in gangs, get moved into other troubled urban areas - say from Walworth to Thamesmead, they and their families then experience a ton of shit along the outsiders/postcode wars line from local crews. <<<a big issue that, which social services don't seem to give a shit about.
-where people get moved to are often the poorest areas with the least resources, creating new problems there. Robbing Peter to pay Paul type thing.

not sure what you had in mind about going into schools, police in corridors? metal detectors at the door? or talks from people affected/police? Police in schools is already increasingly happening and the US shows us where this ends up. Prison schools.

Bobbies on the Beat isnt going to do much.

Not trying to pour cold water, just thougths.

 

[Edie]

Yeah I can see moving families may have issues. But it seems to be part of what worked in Glasgow?

I’m not against police in schools cos the officer in my sons school is actually brilliant. He’s been a massive help to me with my sons and with trouble related to some of the kids there. The kids generally like him, and he’s a stopper between them and the police down the station as he has a lot of discretion.

And yes. Police on the streets.

What are your thoughts/suggestions ska?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Police in schools? What a sorry state of affairs to reach. In London there is a huge problem there in that the police in the schools will be from the Met. The Met are part of the problem here.

What exactly does more police on the streets do? Serious question. I think it's easy to overestimate the idea that the police can prevent crime. They can catch people who commit crimes, but their capacity for direct prevention is limited, and I think should be limited. And this will vary from person to person I guess, and region to region, but seeing coppers does not make me feel safer. Quite the opposite.

I don't think it can be stressed too much that a rise in violence is a direct consequence of 'austerity'. An inevitable consequence really. That's nothing to do with policing. It's to do with creating a sick society.

 

[ska invita]

What are your thoughts/suggestions ska?

Glasgow;
"There was help with housing, relocation, employment and training. They were given a number to call if they wanted to take the offer up. Huge numbers of them did so, were put into the programme, and are no longer in the gang lifestyle.”

Having a government who cares about ordinary people, who wants to make society more equal. Tory governments have a duty to create inequality. That's not bluster, that's their ideological world view. Stratification is their purpose.

The solution is killing Austerity and investing in people.

Its amazing that after the shock of 2011 riots not only did nothing change but the cuts to youth services just went on deeper and deeper.

Does everyone know what Connexions centres were? They had them in London, not sure if they were cross country. They were like job centres for young people, helping with CVs , training and job placements. I was genuinely shocked that the Tories shut them. I thought they want everyone to get on a bike and get a job? They were proven to work.

The Ema was another good policy that blatantly worked and was money well spent.

 

[andysays]

Maybe the police could work WITH those communities in getting this shit sorted? It’s like there’s a decision between no policing or racial profiling stop and search with no sensible options in between.

Didn't you used to identify as an anarchist?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Didn't you used to identify as an anarchist?

I don’t know any anarchists who never phone the police if they’re victims of crime.
Ideally I’d argue for organised community action, but where that doesn’t happen (in most cases) then why not hold the authorities to account?

 

[andysays]

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I favour bottom up rather than top down politics. I’m not some punk throwback with a dog on a string slumming it in some squat.

 

[andysays]

I favour bottom up rather than top down politics. I’m not some punk throwback with a dog on a string slumming it in some squat.

But you're quite happy to call for more top down action from the authorities, as long as it's only people who you've decided are 'other' who are affected by it...

 

[Magnus McGinty]

But you're quite happy to call for more top down action from the authorities, as long as it's only people who you've decided are 'other' who are affected by it...

Why shouldn’t the police make the lives of the working class less miserable? They’re paid from our taxes. You appear to be on the side of those causing the misery because of political purism.

 

[Pickman's model]

I don’t know any anarchists who never phone the police if they’re victims of crime.

we've been through this before. we all know the police won't do anything about many crimes, for example phone theft. but people need a crime number for things, which is why many people will call the police - not expecting action but as it is a step on the way to claiming insurance etc. it's something imposed by companies, not something people do when they've lost a phone expecting the cops to drop everything and get on the case.

 

[Pickman's model]

Why shouldn’t the police make the lives of the working class less miserable? They’re paid from our taxes. You appear to be on the side of those causing the misery because of political purism.

i don't think you've really grasped the role of the police in society

 

[Magnus McGinty]

i don't think you've really grasped the role of the police in society

I have. The difference between us is that you think political pressure shouldn’t be applied to them because anarchism. I disagree.

 

[Pickman's model]

I have. The difference between us is that you think political pressure shouldn’t be applied to them because anarchism. I disagree.

that's an invention of your own imagination.

the difference between us is i recognise that political pressure is applied to them, from people with far more power than you or i.

while there is pressure on the police, they will - temporarily - act on it. but the issue here is that there is not a policing solution to the matter at hand.

 

[Pickman's model]

saying there's a policing solution to knife crime is like saying there's a policing solution to drugs.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

that's an invention of your own imagination.

the difference between us is i recognise that political pressure is applied to them, from people with far more power than you or i.

while there is pressure on the police, they will - temporarily - act on it. but the issue here is that there is not a policing solution to the matter at hand.

Most of the wc aren’t anti-police in the way anarchists are. To nail your colours to the mast of absolutely not involving the police whilst trying to engage those communities - I don’t think it’s a winner to any cause, is it?

 

[Pickman's model]

Most of the wc aren’t anti-police in the way anarchists are. To nail your colours to the mast of absolutely not involving the police whilst trying to engage those communities - I don’t think it’s a winner to any cause, is it?

perhaps you could point me to where i have said or suggested that, before you come out with some other imaginary confection of what i think

 

[SpookyFrank]

.

Does everyone know what Connexions centres were? They had them in London, not sure if they were cross country. They were like job centres for young people, helping with CVs , training and job placements. I was genuinely shocked that the Tories shut them. I thought they want everyone to get on a bike and get a job? They were proven to work.

Yep, they had them nationwide.

Don't go looking for the sense in tory policies because there is none.

 

[SpookyFrank]

In that case the solution is very simple - incarcerate all men between the ages of 15 and 34.

Can we make it 32? Asking for a friend...

 

[Magnus McGinty]

perhaps you could point me to where i have said or suggested that, before you come out with some other imaginary confection of what i think

You’ve just spent the last few posts setting out that stall.

 

[Pickman's model]

You’ve just spent the last few posts setting out that stall.

I've said in two of them you're making things up. And again you're making things up. I would be very happy to have police involvement at a broad-based meeting, there is no better way to demonstrate their utter uselessness. Do you really think this will be a priority for them, knife crime? They'll use it as a counter in the game of playing politics with people's lives. And they'll be onto something else when it suits their agenda. I say again, there is no policing solution to knife crime. Having the police involved will only impress the credulous. The police cannot do anything meaningful about the complex social problems, many of them emanating from government, which maintain knife carrying and use.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I've said in two of them you're making things up. And again you're making things up. I would be very happy to have police involvement at a broad-based meeting, there is no better way to demonstrate their utter uselessness. Do you really think this will be a priority for them, knife crime? They'll use it as a counter in the game of playing politics with people's lives. And they'll be onto something else when it suits their agenda. I say again, there is no policing solution to knife crime. Having the police involved will only impress the credulous. The police cannot do anything meaningful about the complex social problems, many of them emanating from government, which maintain knife carrying and use.

They can do more than they’re presently doing, which appears to be containment of the issue in poor areas whilst wealthier areas are free from such trouble.

 

[Pickman's model]

They can do more than they’re presently doing, which appears to be containment of the issue in poor areas whilst wealthier areas are free from such trouble.

Don't piss about, say what more you think they could be doing, and do tell us more about how this containment works.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Don't piss about, say what more you think they could be doing, and do tell us more about how this containment works.

Fuck me Pickman’s. They’re the police. Surely it doesn’t need explaining what they should or shouldn’t be doing and that their resources are directed more towards protecting wealthy areas than poorer ones.

 

[Edie]

It’s ridiculous to say that there isn’t a role for the police. Completely out of touch with reality.

 

[Pickman's model]

Fuck me Pickman’s. They’re the police. Surely it doesn’t need explaining what they should or shouldn’t be doing and that their resources are directed more towards protecting wealthy areas than poorer ones.

I've asked you so obvs I do think it needs explaining. Tell me this wonderful policing solution you have in your imagination. And while you're about it tell me more about this containment thing.

 

[Pickman's model]

It’s ridiculous to say that there isn’t a role for the police. Completely out of touch with reality.

Who has said there's no role for the police?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I've asked you so obvs I do think it needs explaining. Tell me this wonderful policing solution you have in your imagination. And while you're about it tell me more about this containment thing.

I just think you’re completely removed from reality. Honestly, this stuff doesn’t need explaining.

 

[Edie]

saying there's a policing solution to knife crime is like saying there's a policing solution to drugs.

You.

 

[Pickman's model]

I just think you’re completely removed from reality. Honestly, this stuff doesn’t need explaining.

You're full of fail. You bluster away and fart out guff about they can do more but when questioned about what you'd like to see then do you cannot say. Pisspoor. Doesn't need explaining? It's that your bluff's been called and there's nothing to show.