Bitcoin discussion and news

[BigTom]

No, the oracle is for taking off-chain data and putting it onchain, or conversely taking on-chain data and effecting the off-chain world.
So suppose for a smart contract that I am writing that will buy gas when it falls below a certain bitcoin price (useful for miners), I need to know the price of gas in order to create that derivative, but the price of gas isnt onchain, I need some entity to tell me truthfully and reliably what the price of gas is. I could rely on a data feed from somebody like the financial times, and datafeeds are available, but how do I know its true? In many markets there could be significant financial advantages to data feed manipulation.

Oracles are the things that verify the truth of the information that is coming on chain, and the truth of information going offchain into smart contract powered devices. They are the bridge between the old world and the new - oracles are the things that keep the two worlds in alignment.

But the oracle can't verify if the data it's been given is correct in the kind of case I'm talking about. It's not like it can look at various different sources commenting on the same real world activity, there's only two parties involved here and they disagree with each other.

Plus even in your example why do you trust the oracle which is subject to exactly the same financial advantages to data feed manipulation?

 

[NoXion]

OMG! We could have an Urban75 DAO!! <squeal>

Why did I never think of that! You in kabbes ?

What the hell would be the point of that? Apparently you seem unbothered by the fact this forum belongs to editor . How absolutely typical of the crypto crowd to try and claim something that actually belongs to someone else in the first place.

If they're not cultists, they're fucking thieves.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

But the oracle can't verify if the data it's been given is correct in the kind of case I'm talking about. It's not like it can look at various different sources commenting on the same real world activity, there's only two parties involved here and they disagree with each other.

Thats exactly what it does.
So for example, an oracle that brings on chain "the tempreture in London at 12pm on 1st August" might receive data from a multiple set of sources. The ways oracles verify the info that they put on chain is complicated, but they do use more than one source of data, at least for verification. Oracles require publicly available data sources to work.

The parties here are a little irrelevant. Someone (/bot) will suggest that the boxes got delivered, this could be the deliverer but would not typically be, more likely to be a camera feed, or a QR locator scanner, someone else (/bot) will dispute that and say that they didnt.

Plus even in your example why do you trust the oracle which is subject to exactly the same financial advantages to data feed manipulation?

Tokenomics, that basically it is more expensive to bring bad data on-chain than the financial advantage of doing so.

So if I try to put on-chain that London is 0 degrees at the moment, I need to put up some kind of a bond that this info is true. If someone spots that the info is false, they are rewarded for identifying that, and I lose all or part of my bond. (There are a lot of different tokenomic mechanisms but thats the basic method)

More/better explaination here

What is a blockchain oracle and how does it work?

Any device or entity that connects a deterministic blockchain to off-chain data is referred to as a blockchain oracle.

cointelegraph.com

 

[BigTom]

Thats exactly what it does.
So for example, an oracle that brings on chain "the tempreture in London at 12pm on 1st August" might receive data from a multiple set of sources. The ways oracles verify the info that they put on chain is complicated, but they do use more than one source of data, at least for verification. Oracles require publicly available data sources to work.

The parties here are a little irrelevant. Someone (/bot) will suggest that the boxes got delivered, this could be the deliverer but would not typically be, more likely to be a camera feed, or a QR locator scanner, someone else (/bot) will dispute that and say that they didnt.

Tokenomics, that basically it is more expensive to bring bad data on-chain than the financial advantage of doing so.

So if I try to put on-chain that London is 0 degrees at the moment, I need to put up some kind of a bond that this info is true. If someone spots that the info is false, they are rewarded for identifying that, and I lose all or part of my bond. (There are a lot of different tokenomic mechanisms but thats the basic method)

More/better explaination here

What is a blockchain oracle and how does it work?

Any device or entity that connects a deterministic blockchain to off-chain data is referred to as a blockchain oracle.

cointelegraph.com

Will read the tokenomics stuff when i get the energy work is crazy right now.

With the oracle stuff, what happens next? How is it decided who is right? Like i could put a gps tracker and show i sent something from a to b but that doesn't prove i sent the things i said i would, or that they were in working order. Or at the other end i could just not scan things i have received and claim they never came.

Would that mean the oracle would say i never received them because the other data doesn't say they arrived?

 

[StakerOne]

What the hell would be the point of that? Apparently you seem unbothered by the fact this forum belongs to editor . How absolutely typical of the crypto crowd to try and claim something that actually belongs to someone else in the first place.

If they're not cultists, they're fucking thieves.

* Makes note never to jest with NoXion around.

 

[NoXion]

Aren't jokes supposed to be funny?

 

[StakerOne]

Aren't jokes supposed to be funny?

They don't have to be funny to everyone, very few jokes are.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

this thread is a joke .

it's just too early for the punchline to really hit

 

[Smangus]

Whatever happened to the old adage - never invest in something you don't understand?

 

[StakerOne]

Oh look, crypto making energy markets more efficient and greener.

Probably a scam that loads of energy providers and high volume users are falling for! /s

What we do - Energy Web
Our Ecosystem - Energy Web

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Oh look, crypto making energy markets more efficient and greener.

That's a big claim. I clicked on the one scheme they have going in Africa. It is using DeFi to do some fundraising. You'd need to look in detail at how that's going and how it is going better than alternative systems might have gone to see if it is making the situation more efficient or greener. Who is included and who is excluded? How much is raised and at what costs? What are the risks of it going pear-shaped? Lots of questions, but not enough info on the website to tell.

 

[NoXion]

Building a brave new world (apparently on a foundation of doubletalk and bafflegab)... by partnering with Shell, a fossil fuel company. Sure.

 

[StakerOne]

That's a big claim. I clicked on the one scheme they have going in Africa. It is using DeFi to do some fundraising. You'd need to look in detail at how that's going and how it is going better than alternative systems might have gone to see if it is making the situation more efficient or greener. Who is included and who is excluded? How much is raised and at what costs? What are the risks of it going pear-shaped? Lots of questions, but not enough info on the website to tell.

Considering the number of big players they have on board, then it stands to reason, that they aren't going to put together a website with the intent of proving to sceptic that every single project is tip-top-bona-fide.

It's still quite a comprehensive website with many partners that are household names. Let's face it. Even if it had all of the info you wanted, you would still be diametrically opposed to it.

 

[StakerOne]

Building a brave new world (apparently on a foundation of doubletalk and bafflegab)... by partnering with Shell, a fossil fuel company. Sure.

Just like any other energy company, Shell is going in the direction of renewables and already offer renewables.

If only there was some trustless decentralised system which would enable us to work out what type of energy we are consuming.... /s

 

[Supine]

Just like any other energy company, Shell is trying to green wash its image

Fixed that for you

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/three-arrows-capital-kyle-davies-su-zhu-crash.html

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Considering the number of big players they have on board, then it stands to reason, that they aren't going to put together a website with the intent of proving to sceptic that every single project is tip-top-bona-fide.

It's still quite a comprehensive website with many partners that are household names. Let's face it. Even if it had all of the info you wanted, you would still be diametrically opposed to it.

See that last bit is not true. If they could lay out in comprehensible terms how this project was going to benefit the planet, I'd read it carefully. But they don't. And it's telling that they don't.

And no, I'm certainly not just going to take their word for it that what they're doing is benefitting the planet. Nobody should.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

I think that site is deliberately obfuscatory to be honest. It's all about sounding clever and layering on the apparent complexity without making clear what it's actually about. Academics are always expected to be able to provide a basic layman's explanation of what they're actually doing regardless of how obscure it might be so it's not some impossible ask.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I had a look at one of their case studies. Project Edge, intended to provide a way of managing distributed energy sources in Australia. It's very much at the trial stage right now, so it's a case of watch this space in terms of whether or not it will be effective. In their explanations, underneath all the fine words, the term 'trust the code' shines through rather worryingly, as they replace 'legacy energy market processes'. At the very least, I predict that it won't work as smoothly as they claim it will. Unforeseen problems will arise. They always do.

 

[StakerOne]

I had a look at one of their case studies. Project Edge, intended to provide a way of managing distributed energy sources in Australia. It's very much at the trial stage right now, so it's a case of watch this space in terms of whether or not it will be effective. In their explanations, underneath all the fine words, the term 'trust the code' shines through rather worryingly, as they replace 'legacy energy market processes'. At the very least, I predict that it won't work as smoothly as they claim it will. Unforeseen problems will arise. They always do.

Green Proofs - Energy Web

In this decisive decade, companies and governments need to back up their decarbonization pledges with verifiable data. Without concrete proof, ESG reporting and sustainability claims become empty promises at best and outright misleading at worst.

That is what blockchain is all about. Allowing people and other entities to prove what they need to prove.

If you believe blockchain tech is incapable of doing that, then make your case.
If you thiink EnergyWeb is incapable of doing that, make your case.

As for things "not work smoothly" - Every experienced project manager would know that. There's a load of projects going on and neither of us know the experience of everyone involved.

 

[Storm Fox]

A use case for blockchain, but it is not some utopian method of giving more freedom to people, this is just a big business-to-business auditing method.
Blockchain will probably be used for this but it not a method for reducing government involvement which a lot of Crytpo people are advocating it will.

I looked at the Vodafone project. One of its aims is auditing whether or the Electricity is actually Green Energy. Great, but if your EV needs a charge on a windless cloudy day in February most people are going to wait 6 hours at Watford Gap Services waiting for Green Energy to become available and all that means to someone else isn't using green energy.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Green Proofs - Energy Web

In this decisive decade, companies and governments need to back up their decarbonization pledges with verifiable data. Without concrete proof, ESG reporting and sustainability claims become empty promises at best and outright misleading at worst.

That is what blockchain is all about. Allowing people and other entities to prove what they need to prove.

If you believe blockchain tech is incapable of doing that, then make your case.
If you thiink EnergyWeb is incapable of doing that, make your case.

It's up to them to make their case.

You seem intent on taking their word for it that their work is as important and valuable as they say it is. That's rather naive and credulous, no?

Rather than 'look at this, don't you want to save the planet?', it would be more accurate to say 'look at this, I think it's an interesting project that might help save the planet. It's a potential use value for blockchains. We'll see how effective it is. '

Also, it doesn't really touch on the destructive nature of cryptocurrency trading. Nobody has denied that blockchains can potentially have value in business audit systems.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Yeah, I'd genuinely be interested to see some good examples of what can actually be achieved with this stuff but I just don't see it coming from the evangelists. As a starting point I'd like to see something where it looks like someone has started with a problem, looked at the options, and assessed how blockchain can help. As far as I can see though all of these things take as a starting point that blockchain must be the answer to everything ever and then try and push things into that shape, usually through lots of incoherent jargon.

 

[Ranbay]

Yeah, I'd genuinely be interested to see some good examples of what can actually be achieved with this stuff but I just don't see it coming from the evangelists. As a starting point I'd like to see something where it looks like someone has started with a problem, looked at the options, and assessed how blockchain can help. As far as I can see though all of these things take as a starting point that blockchain must be the answer to everything ever and then try and push things into that shape, usually through lots of incoherent jargon.

I had a problem getting high quality drugs at reasonable prices.... I then bought some Bitcoin and used that to buy the drugs over the blockchain.

then when the drugs arrived I sold them and made more money.

 

[SpineyNorman]

More posts from qwerty and fewer from stalkerone please. This thread has taken a turn for the boring over the last few pages.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Frankly the thread now feels like an astroterfing attempt.

Astroturfing - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[StakerOne]

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/three-arrows-capital-kyle-davies-su-zhu-crash.html

Three Arrows is a company.
Regulators should be regulating companies that handle other people's assets.
This is an excellent case for decentralisation - DeFi

 

[Storm Fox]

I haven't read all the article yet, but here is a more realistic implementation of blockchain tech.

Building a Transparent Supply Chain

One of the most promising applications of emerging blockchain technology is supply chain management. Blockchain—the digital record-keeping system developed for cryptocurrency networks—can help supply chain partners with some of their challenges by creating a complete, transparent, tamperproof...

hbr.org

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Three Arrows is a company.
Regulators should be regulating companies that handle other people's assets.
This is an excellent case for decentralisation - DeFi

It's an example of the grift that has attached itself to cryptocurrencies.

web3isgoinggreat has another example today

Hodlnaut applies for creditor protection​

(attribution)
After halting withdrawals on August 8, Singaporean crypto lender Hodlnaut has applied for protection against creditors: a process similar to the U.S. Chapter 11 bankruptcy.
They explained in a statement that they made the decision in order to try to avoid forced asset liquidation, "as it is a suboptimal solution that will require us to sell our users’ cryptocurrencies at these current depressed asset prices".

Hodlnaut drew in creditors with a promise of 7.25% interest. Its business model, like that of Three Arrows, was predicated on 'line goes up'. That's pretty much the definition of a Ponzi scheme.

 

[StakerOne]

It's an example of the grift that has attached itself to cryptocurrencies.

web3isgoinggreat has another example today



Hodlnaut drew in creditors with a promise of 7.25% interest. Its business model, like that of Three Arrows, was predicated on 'line goes up'. That's pretty much the definition of a Ponzi scheme.

You're illogicial.

Again, you seem to have a big problem that public blockchains are permissionless from the edge.

Blockchains have no way of excluding companies from transacting on them, this is by design, so that no one is ecomomically excluded.

Both the examples you cite, are COMPANIES that offer services by which lenders have to deposit their cryptos to.

Anyone who knows anything about the way cryptos works would strongly advise against using those services as they go against the whole ethos of why public blockchains were created in the first place.

In proper DeFi, there is NOTHING obscured from public view, the crypto / money goes into. The user can seee the source code for both the Web3 website AND any smart contracts involved.

You can argue ALL you want about how people who can't code can't tell if the code is legit, but many can because they can see it.

Once you give your cryptos, money, magic beans or whatever to a third party centralised service, you know like a traditional finance firm - you have NO IDEA whether they are doing what they are promising or straight up gambling.

Cryptocurrencies have market value, as such people want to steal it, gamble with it or whatever, just like they want to with normal money. There's no end of websites that want you to part you with your normal money, there's no end of websites that want you to part with your cryptos - there's no difference.

As for "web3isgoinggreat", if that website is getting firms like Hodlnaut as some kind of critique of Web3, then web3isgoinggreat are being provably downright deceptive and dishonest.

The reality is that blockchains and web3 will stop scams because it's much easier to prove facts from a permissionless, immutable blockchain.

One example, is proving what qualifications individuals have. One day, all academic and proffessional qualifications will be stored on the blockchain and will be impossible to forge. Everything can go on.