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Wales v England: Cardiff Six Nations Showdown!

It's on the other thread but it's worth putting it in here too:

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Dutty gobbing Englisch.
 
One of the problems with the scrum is there's a lot of room for interpretation. But referee interpretation isn'twhat lost eEngland that game. A far superior team is the reason they lost that game. A team that opened them up like a tin of kippers and demolished them.
 
Didnt see the game but Steve Walsh certainly attracts a lot of publicity for a ref. Was he actually that bad in this game?
 
tbh no. he at least allowed the game to flow reasonably well.

this 6n though the scrums have been a total bag of shite and the rules need to be sorted out.
 
Just a thought: maybe Rowntree should also be asking Jutge about the many-times-greater magnitude refereeing failings and errors that handed England their wins against France and Italy.

It's ill befitting of a Lions forward coach who will soon be presiding over what I suspect will be a Welsh-dominated forwards squad to be behaving in this way, IMO. Maybe he should look to his own failings as a coach, given the way his area of responsibility was comprehensively dismantled, rather than that of Walsh.

If the margin had been three points, and if the winning score had been based on a dodgy decision, then feel free to complain. But given the utter dicking they received it comes across as particularly churlish. Was our 6 clean line breaks against their three, or their 19 missed tackles against our 9 down to Walsh as well? Was it his fault that they couldn't have scored in a brothel that day and rarely threatened our line? Nah, thought not. Rowntree has plummeted in my estimation over this. Very ill-advised.

I'd also say that some of the dodgier decisions in the scrum came after England had been owned in the first half. By that point Walsh had had enough, and could see no other side coming out of that battle on top than us. Thus we were given more latitude to be a bit cute than we otherwise would have done. This was built on the back of dominance, however. For the first time I can remember we adapted to the ref and played him. Usually it's the other guys who do that better.
 
Pingu said:
tbh no. he at least allowed the game to flow reasonably well.

this 6n though the scrums have been a total bag of shite and the rules need to be sorted out.
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Agree here. If you'd have had some over fussy, picky twat like Joubert who pinged every infringement the game wouldn't have flowed. Walsh interpreted the game his way, but it allowed pace and continuity and thus provided the basis for one of the finest games of rugby that many of us have ever seen.
 
Duty of players/coaches to add their first-hand experience to refine the massively tricky and contentious process of reffing scrums? Just because you've been beaten comprehensively and schooled by a better side it doesn't mean your opinion is worth nowt does it?
 
King Biscuit Time said:
Duty of players/coaches to add their first-hand experience to refine the massively tricky and contentious process of reffing scrums? Just because you've been beaten comprehensively and schooled by a better side it doesn't mean your opinion is worth nowt does it?
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Fine. I'll ask again though, why do this the first time in the tournament when they've actually come off worse on the 50/50s. If it was really for the good of the game they'd also question all the decisions that enabled then to still be competing for a GS on the final day
 
Yeah - suppose thats true. But it's a fact that people are much less likely to complain when things are going their way, and that's not just gamesmanship, that's just the psychology of executing a plan and thinking that it's working.

I don't doubt that any team is more likely to complain about bad reffing after a loss. Because thats when you notice. But that doesn't mean that they're blaming bad reffing for losing, or taking anything from Wales.
 
King Biscuit Time said:
Yeah - suppose thats true. But it's a fact that people are much less likely to complain when things are going their way, and that's not just gamesmanship, that's just the psychology of executing a plan and thinking that it's working.

I don't doubt that any team is more likely to complain about bad reffing after a loss. Because thats when you notice. But that doesn't mean that they're blaming bad reffing for losing, or taking anything from Wales.
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I agree here. In the main I only notice bad reffing either when it's so utterly pisspoor that you simply can't miss it (Joubert in the Wales-Scotland game, Clancy in the England-Italy game) or when Wales or the Os are losing off the back of poor decisions).

However, the bolded bit I definitely don't agree with. There's already a slowly pervading myth starting to filter through in the media and online that Walsh was the architect of England's downfall, and that with a level playing field they could have won.

Utter cobblers, of course, but for Rowntree to come out and state what he has fuels that fire; something that detracts from the manner of our victory, their defeat and the plaudits that should come with it. I recognise that this is not universal, indeed on the BBC the likes of Lord Bald and Moore didn't mention the officiating once, but I think it's mealy mouthed and ill-advised.

Querying what you perceive to be bad decisions and game control is one thing, and I suspect it is commonplace. Gobbing off about it in the press in order to cover your inadequacies while at the same time trying desperately to make a case for Lions inclusion for a number of players who have shot their bolts is pisspoor, especially from a Lions coach in waiting.
 
extended highlights on bbc2 Wales tonight at 10:45
Watch extended highlights of how Wales beat England 30-3 to retain the Six Nations Championship.
Tries from Alex Cuthbert and four penalties from Leigh Halfpenny topped a classy performance by the home side, who only needed to win by seven points to ensure the title.
Wales v England. We did it - BBC Two Wales 22: 50 on Wednesday
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Parling has been gold since Saturday, here's his account post match,

“We all went back to the hotel. A few lads went to bed but a few of us, mainly Leicester lads, were chilling out, sitting round with our wives and partners quietly drinking and there was an English woman there with an English boyfriend, she had Welsh parents or whatever.

“She was chatting and you could overhear her saying: ‘Look at them, look at how arrogant they are they just don’t care, I’ve paid good money for a ticket.' We ended up in a sort of an argument where they just wouldn’t leave us alone. I struggled to comprehend her attitude after a game like that and this was from an English person as well.
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Quality. Gets gobbed off at by an English fan and blames Welsh parentage :confused:
 
bendeus said:
I agree here. In the main I only notice bad reffing either when it's so utterly pisspoor that you simply can't miss it (Joubert in the Wales-Scotland game, Clancy in the England-Italy game) or when Wales or the Os are losing off the back of poor decisions).

However, the bolded bit I definitely don't agree with. There's already a slowly pervading myth starting to filter through in the media and online that Walsh was the architect of England's downfall, and that with a level playing field they could have won.

Utter cobblers, of course, but for Rowntree to come out and state what he has fuels that fire; something that detracts from the manner of our victory, their defeat and the plaudits that should come with it. I recognise that this is not universal, indeed on the BBC the likes of Lord Bald and Moore didn't mention the officiating once, but I think it's mealy mouthed and ill-advised.

Querying what you perceive to be bad decisions and game control is one thing, and I suspect it is commonplace. Gobbing off about it in the press in order to cover your inadequacies while at the same time trying desperately to make a case for Lions inclusion for a number of players who have shot their bolts is pisspoor, especially from a Lions coach in waiting.
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What I find flabbergasting is several pundits with considerable knowledge from jiffy, Dawson to Guscott said fuck all about the reffing. Neither did vickery on scrum V. In the immediate aftermath of the game words like 'outmuscled' were used by lancaster and 'outplayed on every level' by farrell.. Now we get this tosh feeding into doubt about a victory where they were comprehensively spanked. I had a degree of respect for lancaster and his humbleness and work ethic before this but he's definitely gone down in my estimation now.
 
Grandma Death said:
What I find flabbergasting is several pundits with considerable knowledge from jiffy, Dawson to Guscott said fuck all about the reffing. Neither did vickery on scrum V. In the immediate aftermath of the game words like 'outmuscled' were used by lancaster and 'outplayed on every level' by farrell.. Now we get this tosh feeding into doubt about a victory where they were comprehensively spanked. I had a degree for lancaster and his humbleness and work ethic before this but he's definitely gone down in my estimation now.
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It's all good. If the ref and our cheating are to blame then there's no house to put in order.
 
You know if I was one of those Welsh fans that hated the English team because of their past arrogance I'd say this all smacks of that old English arrogance. But I'm not one of those Welsh fans. But it does come across as arrogant and sour grapes. :)
 
From the Times today,

Don't blame Steve Walsh for Chris Ashton's inability to tackle

Rick Broadbent
Last updated at 10:28AM, March 20 2013

Moaning about the referee is as self-defeating as letting a bunch of Welshmen beat you instead.

That does not mean Graham Rowntree is wrong in wanting to go to the IRB to seek clarification over Steve Walsh’s decision-making at the scrum and breakdown in Saturday’s Grand Slam decider. In truth, we’d all like that.

Nor does it mean Walsh is not the sort of preening official last seen in pro sport when Jeff Winter was covering himself in spray tan and using re-runs of Baywatch as his sporting motivation.

And if you are going to complain about a referee the check-list criteria starts with your views being both honest and considered. Three days after the Wales game, Rowntree ticks these boxes too.

However, the mistake he has made is going public. Instantly, the reasoned arguments are condensed, passed on via cyber-Chinese whispers and filtered through the medium of the 140-character putdown. Before you know it England have merely confirmed Jim Telfer’s remarks made prior to the Scotland clash. Remember them. “They are too arrogant, too pretentious and too condescending to realise they have a problem,” he said.

It was stirring stuff and ended up playing a role in the build-up to the Calcutta Cup. But maybe we are arrogant because, while we bristled with indignation at that slur, nobody thought it worth a mention that in the same article Telfer had said: “Basically, the Welsh are lazy.” Is it arrogant to think being labelled arrogant is worse than being lazy?

Rowntree is absolutely right to want to know the reason behind the decisions, not least because it seems they did not tarry with pre-match briefings with Walsh. And some sort of global uniformity for the scrum and breakdown would make rugby a better and fairer game. It is also understandable that Rowntree should feel aggrieved when the Press Association was reporting on Saturday that the Welsh camp had admitted to deliberately pulling down scrums.

But Wales were far and away the better side on Saturday and even Rowntree admitted that the decisions did not alter the result, only the scale of the defeat. So whatever the rights and wrongs of Walsh’s display – and some have suggested he did okay despite the penalty count – Rowntree’s remarks could only ever be reduced to sour grapes and English arrogance.

We know Walsh has got previous with England, but so what? That does not necessarily equate to a deliberately biased display. England should take this on the chin and take their feelings to the IRB in private. That would be sensible route for any coach seeking to avoid making the same mistakes in other big games.

In addition, by going public England have also detracted from the grace shown by Stuart Lancaster and his players in the immediate aftermath of defeat. Listening to Lancaster speak just hours after the Grand Slam had imploded jarred with the outcry following Manchester United’s exit to Real Madrid in the Champions League.

That was down to a bad referee, we were led to believe, and one risible red-card decision. Sir Alex Ferguson said it “the third time we’ve been knocked out because of that”, a nice bit of historical rewriting that absolved him of any blame.

Fans issued death threats. One rang 999. The Madrid manager, Jose Mourinho, was just as silly. “The best team lost,” he said. This was an easier way of exhibiting his munificence than erecting a neon ‘HUMBLE’ sign and selling ceramic Special Ones.

Boxing has a history of dodgy decisions and post-bout whingeing. Amir Khan was outraged when he lost a split decision to Lamont Peterson in 2011. He was docked two points by the referee, but had consistently ignored the referee’s warnings and had fought badly. That one ended up in conspiracy land with rumours of a man in a hat being culpable. It was sport meets Dr Seuss on a grassy knoll.

Rugby usually foregoes such frippery, and if going public does bring some clarity to the lottery of the scrum, then maybe it will be a cyber-bashing worth taking.

But Walsh had little impact on Chris Ashton’s inability to tackle and the truth is that the only time when moaning about the referee carries any weight is when you have won.
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This is pretty much my take. There's nothing wrong with querying a refereeing performance in the post mortem. In fact, one should seek clarification in order to better prepare players for playing particular refs. It's tactically on the money. Equally, if you feel hard done by it's worth raising in order to make refs think twice about habitual poor decision making in the future.

It's the going public that's the issue. Rowntree fucked up here.
 
In the post match analysis on the 6N thread i eluded to bringing up the performance of Walsh at a much later date so as to take nothing away from Wales' superb and utterly dominant performace.

It seems it has bubbled up /leaked out / been prised out (delete where applicable) anyway and way too soon for england to once again be caricatured as 'arrogant' etc. As many have mentioned here it appears to have undone a lot of the good will shown to the England management after taking the beating so humbly.

I feel the hand of the press at work here though. I wrote prior to the match on U75 that I hoped Walsh didnt fuck the game up or words to that effect. I think the England team and press must have had this in their minds prior to the game given the previous with this referee. And most certainly hacks must have been playing on this, hoping, praying for a quote since. And now they have one.

I feel that perhaps Rowntree has been naive / stupid in going public - even if duped. Esp as he has Lions duty to think about but I think the London press would have teased a quote from somewhere soon enough.

For the record I dont think Walsh fucked the game up or altered the winning margin. However, he does seem to relish penalising the English and almost enjoys the ensuing confrontation.
 
Cerberus said:
In the post match analysis on the 6N thread i eluded to bringing up the performance of Walsh at a much later date so as to take nothing away from Wales' superb and utterly dominant performace.

It seems it has bubbled up /leaked out / been prised out (delete where applicable) anyway and way too soon for england to once again be caricatured as 'arrogant' etc. As many have mentioned here it appears to have undone a lot of the good will shown to the England management after taking the beating so humbly.

I feel the hand of the press at work here though. I wrote prior to the match on U75 that I hoped Walsh didnt fuck the game up or words to that effect. I think the England team and press must have had this in their minds prior to the game given the previous with this referee. And most certainly hacks must have been playing on this, hoping, praying for a quote since. And now they have one.

I feel that perhaps Rowntree has been naive / stupid in going public - even if duped. Esp as he has Lions duty to think about but I think the London press would have teased a quote from somewhere soon enough.

For the record I dont think Walsh fucked the game up or altered the winning margin. However, he does seem to relish penalising the English and almost enjoys the ensuing confrontation.
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That's a very reasonable summation. FWIW I read that the England camp have had a journo (not sure who or from which paper) embedded with them over the course of the tournament. It might be that in an unguarded moment Rowntree let slip without demanding the comment be made off the record. The rest, as they say, is history. You may well be right in your appraisal of this as naivete rather than rancour. You're also right about the impact on the Lions' tour. Press pressure and the incessant seeking for and playing up stories of rifts between players, coaches, etc. from different countries is so much greater in that goldfish bowl than elsewhere. Rowntree should have known better.
 
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