Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Rob Ray]

I didn't ask about his delusions, I asked about his powers. As it happens, I agree he doesn't have the power to end the war by accepting the full list of Russian demands (which I dunno, do we have an up to date version of that? Has it changed at all since 2022 with the "de-Nazification" stuff?). Beyond the legalities, his mandate is quite a clear one and he's surrounded by a polity that wouldn't accept it being fobbed off.

So, the US isn't in charge and neither is Zelensky. Which means that the only person with the power to unilaterally end the war is ...

 

[TopCat]

I didn't ask about his delusions, I asked about his powers. As it happens, I agree he doesn't have the power to end the war by accepting the full list of Russian demands (which I dunno, do we have an up to date version of that? Has it changed at all since 2022 with the "de-Nazification" stuff?). Beyond the legalities, his mandate is quite a clear one and he's surrounded by a polity that wouldn't accept it being fobbed off.

So, the US isn't in charge and neither is Zelensky. Which means that the only person with the power to unilaterally end the war is ...

Why are you obsessed with identifying a single person with the unilateral power to end the war. Answer your own questions perhaps.

 

[Rob Ray]

I have done, several times over. I think focusing on Zelensky is a fool's project because he's a replaceable figurehead. I think the US funding cycle is considerably more important to whether the war continues, but it's mostly reacting rather than leading. And I think it's utterly pointless talking about ceasefire negotiations/blaming people for not engaging in them when a) you aren't analysing what they even are, b) the Russian leadership, which is largely bound to the whims of Putinism, has shown no apparent interest whatsoever in seriously negotiating anything.

My method in asking you about who's specifically in charge was to highlight that the people you obsess about the most on here are not.

 

[gosub]

TBF, the US was barely involved by 1942, and the USSR was busily dealing with its own interests. The UK and its allies were definitely doing very, very badly indeed at the beginning of 1942, to the point that it would have looked at the time like Germany might prevail.

writing was on the wall from 7/12/41

 

[Pickman's model]

I have done, several times over. I think focusing on Zelensky is a fool's project because he's a replaceable figurehead. I think the US funding cycle is considerably more important to whether the war continues, but it's mostly reacting rather than leading. And I think it's utterly pointless talking about ceasefire negotiations/blaming people for not engaging in them when a) you aren't analysing what they even are, b) the Russian leadership, which is largely bound to the whims of Putinism, has shown no apparent interest whatsoever in seriously negotiating anything.

My method in asking you about who's specifically in charge was to highlight that the people you obsess about the most on here are not.

Being as zelensky has played quite a part in leading Ukraine and prosecuting the war he's as much a figurehead as putin is. Unless figurehead has gained additional meanings beyond its commonly understood one.

 

[Pickman's model]

TBF, the US was barely involved by 1942, and the USSR was busily dealing with its own interests. The UK and its allies were definitely doing very, very badly indeed at the beginning of 1942, to the point that it would have looked at the time like Germany might prevail.

The great aid given by the United States before their entry into the war doesn't deserve to be minimised as you're doing here. And it's not by 1942 - a mere three weeks after the United States became a belligerent - but in 1942 which is a different thing. After 22.6.41 the Soviet union's interests accorded with those of the British empire in the conflict. The millions of axis soldiers involved in barbarossa were troops who wouldn't be in occupied western Europe. At the start of 1942 things might have looked bleak but by the end of the year things had a rather different complexion.

 

[Rob Ray]

zelensky has played quite a part in leading Ukraine and prosecuting the war

How so? Beyond staying in Kyiv when the war began rather than leg it and contribute to a governmental collapse, he's been no more in a position to declare the war over than anyone else. As it stands the only ways Ukraine stops fighting would be:

• A collapse in public support for carrying on (currently support is in decline but still overwhelming)
• The withdrawal of US/EU aid making further resistance physically untenable
• A Russian surge overwhelming declining defensive capacity

None of these are within his power to decide.

 

[Pickman's model]

How so? Beyond staying in Kyiv when the war began rather than leg it and contribute to a governmental collapse, he's been no more in a position to declare the war over than anyone else. As it stands the only ways Ukraine stops fighting would be:

• A collapse in public support for carrying on (currently support is in decline but still overwhelming)
• The withdrawal of US/EU aid making further resistance physically untenable
• A Russian surge overwhelming declining defensive capacity

None of these are within his power to decide.

None of this makes him a figurehead. Neither Churchill, stalin or Roosevelt had the power to unilaterally end the second world war - nor for that matter did Hitler. No one serious would declare them figureheads.

 

[editor]

A threat was made both against him and his family, so he is just about entitled to the plural, even if the threat was only made by one person.

It was unpleasant and the poster was rightly banned for it, but I really don't think anyone could reasonably suggest that it was a real-life imminent threat of actual murder being proposed on him and his family.

It was just internet hardman nonsense from a gobby twat

 

[Pickman's model]

It was unpleasant and the poster was rightly banned for it, but I really don't think anyone could reasonably suggest that it was a real-life imminent threat of actual murder being proposed on him and his family.

It was just internet hardman nonsense from a gobby twat

Have you ever had death threats? I have, and ime they don't tend to say 'we're on the way round to kill you now'

 

[Rob Ray]

None of this makes him a figurehead. Neither Churchill, stalin or Roosevelt had the power to unilaterally end the second world war - nor for that matter did Hitler. No one serious would declare them figureheads.

Alright, let's say Zelensky isn't a figurehead because he can make tactical decisions. It doesn't make any difference at all to my main point. You could swap him out with any politician in Ukraine and the war would continue, in roughly the same vein.

 

[gosub]

None of this makes him a figurehead. Neither Churchill, stalin or Roosevelt had the power to unilaterally end the second world war - nor for that matter did Hitler. No one serious would declare them figureheads.

RN had to appoint an officer to countermand any ship movement ordered by Churchill after a certain point in the day....his alcohol consumption was uneffected by rationing...but the alternative Halifax, would have been a disaster

 

[Pickman's model]

Alright, let's say Zelensky isn't a figurehead because he can make tactical decisions. It doesn't make any difference at all to my main point.

Did you know he can make strategic decisions too?

 

[Rob Ray]

Did you know he can make strategic decisions too?

Would you prefer to replace him with someone more capable of making them? Or less? Whoever it is, what they can't do is end the war.

 

[TopCat]

It was unpleasant and the poster was rightly banned for it, but I really don't think anyone could reasonably suggest that it was a real-life imminent threat of actual murder being proposed on him and his family.

It was just internet hardman nonsense from a gobby twat

It was really upsetting.

 

[rubbershoes]

The US are front left and centre as they are spending billions on arms. They don’t lead the conflict though.

How much are the Russians spending? Or doesn't that concern you

 

[TopCat]

How much are the Russians spending? Or doesn't that concern you

It’s less the amount but the fact that an outside protagonist is effectively supporting one side with weapons. Or used to.

 

[rubbershoes]

It’s less the amount but the fact that an outside protagonist is effectively supporting one side with weapons. Or used to.

Iran and N Korea send weapons to Russia

 

[Pickman's model]

Would you prefer to replace him with someone more capable of making them? Or less? Whoever it is, what they can't do is end the war.

I'd prefer it if you recognised the reality of the situation, that the irish president is a figurehead, the American president and the French president and the Ukrainian president are not. You keep wittering about ending the war, obviously it's not in the gift of any one person, putin, zelensky, whoever, to end the war unilaterally. That's taken as read.

 

[Pickman's model]

It was really upsetting.

Yeh but editor has in mind the auld irish saying that it's easy to lie on another man's would

 

[andysays]

Could you post up (or forward by PM) examples of some of these actual death threats you have receive here, please?

Who was the silly sod who posted that myself and my family deserved to be killed?
It’s on this thread. The poster got banned.
Help the Editor with his question.

It was B.I.G. as a quick check of banned members confirms.

I'm pretty sure he was the only one though and he's long gone now.

 

[TopCat]

It was B.I.G. as a quick check of banned members confirms.

I'm pretty sure he was the only one though and he's long gone now.

Thanks for helping the Editor with their question.

 

[editor]

Thanks for helping the Editor with their question.

I'm surprised you couldn't name him when asked seeing as he apparently caused you so much upset, but at least we've now established that it was just one hardly credible 'death threat' from a single poster who was immediately banned a long time ago.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm surprised you couldn't name him when asked seeing as he apparently caused you so much upset, but at least we've now established that it was just one hardly credible 'death threat' from a single poster who was immediately banned a long time ago.

He said moving the goalposts again.

 

[andysays]

I'm surprised you couldn't name him when asked seeing as he apparently caused you so much upset, but at least we've now established that it was just one hardly credible 'death threat' from a single poster who was immediately banned a long time ago.

TBH, I'm surprised and disappointed you apparently needed to be reminded of it. Are those sort of comments and bannings so common that you genuinely couldn't remember?

Whatever we think of some of TopCat's posts on this thread, there's really no need to minimise the shit he was subjected to.

 

[TopCat]

I'm surprised you couldn't name him when asked seeing as he apparently caused you so much upset, but at least we've now established that it was just one hardly credible 'death threat' from a single poster who was immediately banned a long time ago.

This is low and demeans you.

 

[TopCat]

So Zelensky was reported as saying (not in one of his nightly tv broadcasts) that they would now move to fortify the front line and continue to lob missiles at strategic targets in Russias rear whilst appealing for more missiles from the West.

If this was accurate it shows a paucity of any credible strategy to regain ground from Ukraine’s leader.

 

[Fez909]

So Zelensky was reported as saying (not in one of his nightly tv broadcasts) that they would now move to fortify the front line and continue to lob missiles at strategic targets in Russias rear whilst appealing for more missiles from the West.

If this was accurate it shows a paucity of any credible strategy to regain ground from Ukraine’s leader.

Lobbing missiles at strategic targets might enable the strategy to regain ground. If the strategic targets are things like artillery batteries, airports (and the planes stored there), missile factories and warhips, then taking these out before more suicidal attempt to cross minefields makes sense to my layperson brain.

As posted upthread current US advise is moving to effectively recognise Ukraine has lost the south and to dig in and hold what it has, as the Russians have, and effectively make a new hard border based on fortifications. In terms of the goal of reclaiming the annexed land that is 'giving up'.

<snip>

From my perspective its been two years already like this, this reality has been apparent for at the very least the last year when Mark Milley was signaling now was the time to negotiate.

The war hasn't even lasted two years yet, so your perspective is a bit off here

The last big 'win' for the Ukranians was re-taking Kherson, which was a year ago. I don't agree with your overall point, but if I did, I would argue this is the moment where the war entered the stalemate.

 

[krtek a houby]

It was really upsetting.

No excuses for it.

None at all.

Such attacks need more than just an emoji or an admonishment.

 

[editor]

No excuses for it.

None at all.

Such attacks need more than just an emoji or an admonishment.

Was the near instant banning not enough?