Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[RileyOBlimey]

For those that need evidence not to believe tenuous rumours on the Internet:

 

[Bingoman]

According to the Ukrainian prime minister Volodymyr Zelenskiy, Turkey has agreed to stop Russian warships passing through the Dardanelles and Bosphorus straits, which connects the Black Sea to the Mediterranean.

The screws seem to be turning almost hourly.

I would never of thought Turkey would of turned on Russia and Putin

 

[ska invita]

Whilst I have no time for NATO and think it does behave provocatively, even it it wasn't playing the game that is no guarantee everyone else will give up too, why would they not use force to pursue their perceived interests in that scenario?

The logical conclusion of what you're saying suggests endless war for all eternity - you have to keep playing the game with force as if you dont you will lose. That's a defeatist view of the potential of politics and political futures.

I remember reading one of Mikhail Gorbachev's books in which he recounted the promise of military de-escalation and disarmament that was promised and laid out by the USA at the end of Soviet Communism. He took the US at their word and was proud to take his historical part in this new chapter of more peaceful global relations. The way he tells it is that the US immediately betrayed the plan, and having secured the changes of Perestroika etc went on an aggressive rearming and repositioning binge. He says he felt utterly betrayed and foolish.

In a way that anecdote makes your case - you have to keep playing the game with strength or a moment of weakness will be taken advantage of by your opponent. However there are alternative ways to do diplomacy and de-escalate. The onus to do so however is on the stronger party to lead the way.

Im sure there are many example in the world of states who have long been in bloody competition with one another who are now in near permanent non-subjugated peace of equals. It can be done if the will is there.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I would never of thought Turkey would of turned on Russia and Putin

Turkey's in NATO. It would have been more of a surprise if it hadn't.

 

[LDC]

According to the Ukrainian prime minister Volodymyr Zelenskiy, Turkey has agreed to stop Russian warships passing through the Dardanelles and Bosphorus straits, which connects the Black Sea to the Mediterranean.

The screws seem to be turning almost hourly.

Yeah, but how the fuck are they going to do that? And a confrontation between the Turkish navy (obviously NATO) and Russian ships could escalate things very badly.

 

[platinumsage]

For those that need evidence not to believe tenuous rumours on the Internet:

The way people lap up obvious garbage from random twitter accounts without even a moment's worth of simple fact-checking is quite dispiriting.

 

[The39thStep]

One of the most senior retired Generals in Portugal who served as Chief of Staff for the NATO Joint Analysis and Lessons Learned Center 'holds EU and NATO leaders accountable to the same extent as Putin'

 

[weepiper]

 

[Pickman's model]

Turkey's in NATO. It would have been more of a surprise if it hadn't.

you've not heard of the montreux convention then

 

[JimW]

The logical conclusion of what you're saying suggests endless war for all eternity - you have to keep playing the game with force as if you dont you will lose. That's a defeatist view of the potential of politics and political futures.

I remember reading one of Mikhail Gorbachev's books in which he recounted the promise of military de-escalation and disarmament that was promised and laid out by the USA at the end of Soviet Communism. He took the US at their word and was proud to take his historical part in this new chapter of more peaceful global relations. The way he tells it is that the US immediately betrayed the plan, and having secured the changes of Perestroika etc went on an aggressive rearming and repositioning binge. He says he felt utterly betrayed and foolish.

In a way that anecdote makes your case - you have to keep playing the game with strength or a moment of weakness will be taken advantage of by your opponent. However there are alternative ways to do diplomacy and de-escalate. The onus to do so however is on the stronger party to lead the way.

Im sure there are many example in the world of states who have long been in bloody competition with one another who are now in near permanent non-subjugated peace of equals. It can be done if the will is there.

Except that's not what I'm saying - I don't think NATO should be playing games but if you think that when they stop, so does everyone else I'd say you're deluded. As if the world has no other dynamic than East and West.

 

[Aladdin]

I would never of thought Turkey would of turned on Russia and Putin

Maybe they know something.

 

[bimble]

How’s Chinese media covering the whole thing ?

 

[agricola]

Yeah, but how the fuck are they going to do that? And a confrontation between the Turkish navy (obviously NATO) and Russian ships could escalate things very badly.

To prevent warships passing through the Bosphorus? It is remarkably easy; the decaying Ottoman state (with no warships of note) managed to do it against the world's biggest and third/fourth biggest navies 100 years ago.

 

[Aladdin]

Yeah, but how the fuck are they going to do that? And a confrontation between the Turkish navy (obviously NATO) and Russian ships could escalate things very badly.

Maybe they will just block them?

 

[Artaxerxes]

How’s Chinese media covering the whole thing ?

And now for local weather.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah, but how the fuck are they going to do that? And a confrontation between the Turkish navy (obviously NATO) and Russian ships could escalate things very badly.

let's just wait for confirmation on this as only yesterday the turkish government were saying they couldn't legally block warships returning to their home base, which for many russian ships is in the black sea. Turkey values closing the Bosphorus and Dardanelles straits but clarifies that it will not be able to prevent the return of Russian ships - Royals Blue

 

[dilute micro]

According to the Ukrainian prime minister Volodymyr Zelenskiy, Turkey has agreed to stop Russian warships passing through the Dardanelles and Bosphorus straits, which connects the Black Sea to the Mediterranean.

The screws seem to be turning almost hourly.

Was just going to post that. That is a big move by Turkey. Putin could take that as a provocation.

 

[JimW]

How’s Chinese media covering the whole thing ?

Low key really as I don't think they're getting a clear line; they do give far more credence to obvious Russian bullshit and are using the term special military operation etc which will have come down from the censors. Plenty of comments on my usual portal (which tends to have more right wing/liberal readers who aren't a pleasant bunch either but the local news is better ) are fairly anti-Russian as far as they can be

 

[Diamond]

Utter shambles emerging on the Russian side:



Saw a good line from someone elsewhere - an army is a snapshot of a nation and its health.

Russia is run upon the logic of corruption. Tends to produce mediocre-to-shit results all the time everywhere.

 

[kebabking]

Yeah, bit suspicious of this. I wouldn't believe that Turkey is closing the Black Sea until I see something from the Turkish government.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Yeah, but how the fuck are they going to do that? And a confrontation between the Turkish navy (obviously NATO) and Russian ships could escalate things very badly.

The Bosporus is about ten feet wide, they could block it with a single ship if needed.

 

[bimble]

And now for local weather.

I read that today Russian tv has normal chat-shows on when you’d otherwise expect coverage of the ‘special operation’ to have dominated.

 

[brogdale]

you've not heard of the montreux convention then

Smoke on the water?

 

[Pickman's model]

Utter shambles emerging on the Russian side:



Saw a good line from someone elsewhere - an army is a snapshot of a nation and its health.

Russia is run upon the logic of corruption. Tends to produce mediocre-to-shit results all the time everywhere.

we've already seen from kebabking, who has some knowledge of warfare, that the best units of the army have been, for whatever reason, held back. imagine the situation that might occur if the territorial units of the british army were sent into battle while the regulars were held back. you might see something similar to this. so rather than pontificate on the basis of er no knowledge or evidence why not go back and reread kebabking's posts before posting again?

 

[LDC]

let's just wait for confirmation on this as only yesterday the turkish government were saying they couldn't legally block warships returning to their home base, which for many russian ships is in the black sea. Turkey values closing the Bosphorus and Dardanelles straits but clarifies that it will not be able to prevent the return of Russian ships - Royals Blue

Yeah, that and what kebabking said was my point, not sure they can do it legally or whatever. Maybe Erdogan needs to chat to all the Freeman loons, don't they go on about maritime law or something?

 

[frogwoman]

Low key really as I don't think they're getting a clear line; they do give far more credence to obvious Russian bullshit and are using the term special military operation etc which will have come down from the censors. Plenty of comments on my usual portal (which tends to have more right wing/liberal readers who aren't a pleasant bunch either but the local news is better ) are fairly anti-Russian as far as they can be

Kinda get the feeling Xi can't really outright go against it because he basically wants to do the same thing but also doesn't want to be linked to it in any way - would this be accurate?

 

[tim]

Sky news now reporting Chechen fighters are in the Ukraine helping the Russians

As Chechnya is currently part of Russia, why would this be a surprise? Ironically the image of Chechens as brutal Muslim terrorists was one used by Putin to justify his violent suppression of independent Chechnya.

 

[dilute micro]

The Bosporus is about ten feet wide, they could block it with a single ship if needed.

When transiting canals you normally need "pilots" to come aboard your ship and take the helm so to speak. These are highly trained professionals and would be from the country of where the harbor or canal is located. A ship from whatever country can't just transit the canal on its own. They don't have the expertise.

 

[Pickman's model]

Sky news now reporting Chechen fighters are in the Ukraine helping the Russians

the mail yesterday was reporting that chechen troops were being sent in to capture particular targets of the russians. altho being as all the soldiers pictured had big beards i imagine they'd stand out somewhat as they pursued their mission.

 

[brogdale]

There's a defiant beauty to this...