Artaxerxes
Look out, he's got a gnu!
Oh we’re back at NATO expansion caused Russian to invade again.
Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24
- Thread starter kebabking
- Start date
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Very disappointed that apparently there are no NATO fans on here.
Artaxerxes
Look out, he's got a gnu!
I have all the merch, even the googley eyed hat
editor
hiraethified
I mainly really fucking hate my local council. I hate their policy of trying to demolish estates, I hate their jobs for the boys mentality, I hate the way they exclude so many people with their buzzword press releases.
However, very occasionally, they will do something that I support. But that does not make me a 'fan' of my council.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
The way people sometimes talk on this thread (myself excluded naturally) can be quite exasperating. Russia does not have an opinion. Russia does not have spheres of interest. But, small groups of people in positions of power in the Russian state have settled upon a course of action, for reasons which can be debated. You only have to look at the faces of some of the senior people in the army and government to see that many or even most of them don't have a clue what is going on.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I'll put you in the not a fan of NATO section
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
I KNEW there were lists.
I wonder if things turned out differently, whether folk would see the Warsaw Pact moving into Ireland as an aggressive manoeuvre or not.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
It's astounding really
Flavour
hang the bankers
if, in your alternative timeline, the Warsaw Pact had "moved into" Ireland (assuming the UK is the Russia of the scenario), in 2004 (the last time a country bordering Russia joined NATO, prior to Finland's post-invasion accession ... therefore Ireland = the Baltic states in this scenario) and then the UK invaded ... somewhere else, not Ireland, but a mythical country between the UK and Ireland which was not part of the Warsaw Pact but had expressed desire to be (the Isle of Man maybe?) in 2022, then yeah, I don't think it'd be the Warsaw Pact looking too aggressive in that scenario, do you?
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
You mean like Russia sending missiles to Cuba in 1962
And then there is the Monroe Doctrine…
I didn’t say they had moved into Ireland. The question was whether folk thought that such a move would be aggressive?
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
Agreed: clearly the Russian people have no agency in this. Contrast the 10-15 year sentence for dissidents with free pass given to the Wagner Murder Machine…
And the US DID find that aggressive…You mean like Russia sending missiles to Cuba in 1962
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
Exactly: one rule for them, another for everyone else. Though China doesnt want to play….
Flavour
hang the bankers
Ah right so if the (presumably Communist) UK which is not in the Warsaw Pact got annoyed that the (presumably Communist) Ireland joined the Warsaw Pact in an alternative timeline where the whole world has gone Communist, but the Soviet Union likes to boss it over the other Communist countries that aren't in the Warsaw Pact, like the UK and Ireland, is that the scenario?
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
Certainly not justified, but partly explained
Why are you finding it difficult to answer the question?
Won’t answer the question either!
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Tbf it's not the best question you've asked
If, in this imaginary scenario, Ireland was afraid of the UK re-invading it and applied to join (but was repeatedly rebuffed by) the Warsaw Pact in order to get defensive assistance, and then UK invaded after all, then I'd say the UK was clearly the aggressive party.
maomao
普費斯
You can be accused of justifying Putin's war for a lot less than that on here.
Flavour
hang the bankers
cos your scenario is weak
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
Had Ireland requested Warsaw Pact help in freeing it from oppressive English imperialist interference in internal affairs?
But would the UK govt consider it an aggressive manoeuvre? Or just some kind of happy progression?
moochedit
Mr Mooched It
By the warsaw pact "moving into" ireland do you mean ireland being invaded against it's will by warsaw pact troops or do you mean ireland willingly joining the warsaw pact as a member? First is obviously aggresive. Second is not (even if the uk didn't like it or see it that way). (I assume we are talking about the irish republic here not NI)
sigh
Anyway, as pointed out, we have the Bay of Pigs crisis to gawp at.
Anyway, as pointed out, we have the Bay of Pigs crisis to gawp at.
In this scenario (and in the NATO/Ukraine one) Warsaw Pact refuses to allow Ireland to join for fear of provoking the UK government. It is Ireland/Ukraine who is the active agent in moving away from UK/Russia. Whether the former colonial master considers this impudence to be aggression doesn't mean that it is so.
Clearly it is a factor in the invasion to some extent, but I'd say it falls under imperialist entitlement rather than a legitimate security interest.
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