Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[StoneRoad]

Bit conspiracy theory. How have we been conditioned?

Just look at the NIMBY brigade when/where-ever building a nuclear power is proposed !

 

[two sheds]

5G masts, too


<not sure which side of the argument I'm coming in here but that won't stop me>

 

[Fez909]

Because it didn't involve bells, being hit and tasty rewards.

This is a very limited view of conditioning. Look into classical vs operant conditioning.

Anyway, I wish I'd never used that word now, as this is a massive distraction. We fear radiation, beyond its actual dangers, IMO, and 'dirty bombs' play on this fear.

 

[maomao]

Just look at the NIMBY brigade when/where-ever building a nuclear power is proposed !

This is proof of the use of psychological conditioning techniques how?

 

[Pickman's model]

Public speaking maybe not but it's certainly been claimed that babies are instinctively afraid of the other three. Do you have definitive proof that they're not?

No I don't but you've implicitly said you don't and its my firm belief you can't be afraid of something like eg falling or fire which you have neither encountered, heard of or imagined.

 

[maomao]

This is a very limited view of conditioning. Look into classical vs operant conditioning.

I was being reductive but both are complex deliberate techniques.

 

[maomao]

No I don't but you've implicitly said you don't and its my firm belief you can't be afraid of something like eg falling or fire which you have neither encountered, heard of or imagined.

What are your firm beliefs based on though because they're at odds with modern infant psychological theories? Babies are afraid of falling (see moro reflex) at an age where they probably haven't got a concept of height yet. And there's plenty of evidence that babies are scared of fire. Fear of snakes and spiders may also be instinctual.

 

[StoneRoad]

A dirty bomb would have very little long term effect, and the radiation dose from the initial blast would be so low, that wouldn't have an effect, either.

The whole concept of a dirty bomb is a bit silly, and sounds much worse than it actually is, purely becaus it involves radioactivity, which people have been conditioned to fear.

Nope, the "pollution" level could be quite considerable and a serious long term hazard, depending on the area affected - not the same problem as falling fallout ... but also what radioactive substances the dirty bomb started with and have been distributed by the conventional explosion.
Anything that emits beta or gamma on a long term basis for example would be more difficult to deal with than a common alpha emitter.
Trouble is, you may start off with an alpha emitter, but as it and the atoms of the daughter isotopes continue to emit, they'll pass through various stages which in turn emit beta / gamma on their way to becoming lead or other stable isotopes.

 

[kabbes]

This is a very limited view of conditioning. Look into classical vs operant conditioning.

No, he’s right. Operant conditioning still involves bypassing cognitive reasoning to develop particular behaviours through the use of punishment and rewards. This isn’t that. I think your better angle of attack is note that there is a lay use of “conditioning” that transcends the technical scientific meaning. That lay use is truly better described as something akin to a Foucauldian subjectification, but is the confusion is understandable. Maomao appreciates that language is malleable, he’s more likely to fall for that explanation.

 

[MickiQ]

5G masts, too


<not sure which side of the argument I'm coming in here but that won't stop me>

This is Urban we expect no less

 

[MickiQ]

All I know about this Game of Thrones stuff is that a dragon killed a shitload of people and everybody thought the ending sucked, so I guess that doesn't bode well for the resolution of Russia's war in Ukraine

There was also a shitload of sex and violence plus killer ice zombies.

The idea is that a decisive defeat for the Russian Army in Ukraine would lead to the downfall of the regime without there needing to be any direct attack on Russia besides enabling Ukraine to defeat the occupying army.

This is the best outcome though I imagine any Russian internal collapse is going to get very messy. Russia is unlikely to be a pleasant place to live for a few years.

 

[Pickman's model]

What are your firm beliefs based on though because they're at odds with modern infant psychological theories? Babies are afraid of falling (see moro reflex) at an age where they probably haven't got a concept of height yet. And there's plenty of evidence that babies are scared of fire. Fear of snakes and spiders may also be instinctual

What age are the babies who have been the subject of experiments and tests to determine these outcomes? How have the psychologists determined they have not previously been exposed to eg height, fire, snakes or spiders? E2a we can do this all day long if you want, I'm free

 

[editor]

Well it's a maximalist position, fully arm Ukraine, attack Russia. Bring down the Russian regime. I think people who support this need help to be frank.

I think people who support Russian's illegal occupation, their bombing of hospitals, schools, homes and civilian infrastructures, the widespread indiscriminate murdering, raping and looting and all the other war crimes they have committed are the ones that really need help.

 

[maomao]

What age are the babies who have been the subject of experiments and tests to determine these outcomes? How have the psychologists determined they have not previously been exposed to eg height, fire, snakes or spiders? E2a we can do this all day long if you want, I'm free

I'm not. Go research it yourself. Moro reflex kicks in about three weeks IIRC.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not. Go research it yourself. Moro reflex kicks in about three weeks IIRC.

Thank you for conceding - as I said no one is born with these fears, you're now saying with at least height they develop after birth

 

[maomao]

Thank you for conceding - as I said no one is born with these fears, you're now saying with at least height they develop after birth

Well you've let yourself down by being needlessly and incorrectly pedantic again, who could have predicted that. If we have an instinct that becomes apparent around three or four weeks and exists regardless of input then yes, we are born with it.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well you've let yourself down by being needlessly and incorrectly pedantic again, who could have predicted that. If we have an instinct that becomes apparent around three or four weeks and exists regardless of input then yes, we are born with it.

I bet very few babies get past the first week without an experience of height. Probably none in fact. So I suggest a fear of falling is not something inherent but something learned, not least from any concern expressed verbally or through body language by parents or others

 

[gosub]

And, of course, given long Belarusian memories of Chernobyl, Lukashenko et al might not be overly keen on setting off a dirty bomb attack in Ukraine...

Depends if they watch HBO

 

[gosub]

Bit conspiracy theory. How have we been conditioned?

All the people who try to give a demonstration that living with radiation is nothing to be scared of keep mysteriously dying

 

[maomao]

I bet very few babies get past the first week without an experience of height. Probably none in fact.

Based on what? Do you understand what a newborn is and isn't capable of perceiving? I may be basing my knowledge on a half remembered psychology a level and some reading about babies I did when I had them but at least I'm not just pulling random thoughts out of my arse like you appear to be.

 

[TopCat]

I think people who support Russian's illegal occupation, their bombing of hospitals, schools, homes and civilian infrastructures, the widespread indiscriminate murdering, raping and looting and all the other war crimes they have committed are the ones that really need help.

Well you and other NATO fans here have been unequivocal in your support for Ukraine and their fight. No one here though has done the things you allege about supporting Putin. It's just more bullshit, more projection. You blamed Putin solely for the conflict and advocated removing him as if that would make any difference. When people started questioning your dubious understanding of history you left the thread, just returning to like the odd abusive comment and maybe add your own.

Hypocritical to issue warnings to me for abuse too given the abuse I have received on this thread.

 

[editor]

Well you and other NATO fans here

"NATO fans"

Right there is where you lost what little credibility you ever had in this debate.

 

[andysays]

I remember reading somewhere George RR Marshall based Game of Thrones on seemingly interminable wars like Vietnam/Wars of the Roses/French Wars of Religion….

So is it just me who looks at the current conflict and sees GOT echoes? Pregozhin as Theon Greyjoy, Putin as Stannis Baratheon (minus any sense of rectitude). Not sure where the megalomaniac Zelensky fits in mind. Any ideas?

Is there any reason you've singled out Zelensky for the label of megalomaniac?

Not necessarily saying he isn't, just about anyone who achieves the role of president is likely to have some unhealthy lust for power, but I can think of a few other individuals involved here whom the label would fit just as well, if not better...

 

[Pickman's model]

Based on what? Do you understand what a newborn is and isn't capable of perceiving? I may be basing my knowledge on a half remembered psychology a level and some reading about babies I did when I had them but at least I'm not just pulling random thoughts out of my arse like you appear to be.

There's nothing random about my position which is simply that until birth no child can have experience of height, of fire, of anything outside the mother's body. Nothing you've said alters my view one iota, and your appeal to a half-recalled a level taken perhaps 30 years ago is a new low. It seems to me to stand to reason that any behaviour which develops after birth is a learned response, that all babies, pretty much, will have experience of being lifted by parents and perhaps siblings if no one else shortly after birth. That new parents at least will be concerned on some level thar they may drop the infant - I know I was when I first held my nephews and niece. And it doesn't seem to me a stretch that this anxiety may be passed on to the child, leading to a fear of falling, of being dropped, developing. Now, unless you have something better and more conclusive to say maybe we can put this away and return to the conflict in ukraine

 

[cupid_stunt]

It's still June so you mean, a year ago?

By 'last June' I did indeed mean 2022, they took a whole year before coming back to the thread.

 

[Pickman's model]

There's nothing random about my position which is simply that until birth no child can have experience of height, of fire, of anything outside the mother's body. Nothing you've said alters my view one iota, and your appeal to a half-recalled a level taken perhaps 30 years ago is a new low. It seems to me to stand to reason that any behaviour which develops after birth is a learned response, that all babies, pretty much, will have experience of being lifted by parents and perhaps siblings if no one else shortly after birth. That new parents at least will be concerned on some level thar they may drop the infant - I know I was when I first held my nephews and niece. And it doesn't seem to me a stretch that this anxiety may be passed on to the child, leading to a fear of falling, of being dropped, developing. Now, unless you have something better and more conclusive to say maybe we can put this away and return to the conflict in ukraine

Tbh it's at times like these that onemonkey's input would be invaluable

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Is there any reason you've singled out Zelensky for the label of megalomaniac?

Not necessarily saying he isn't, just about anyone who achieves the role of president is likely to have some unhealthy lust for power, but I can think of a few other individuals involved here whom the label would fit just as well, if not better...

I agree Putin is a gangster and a thug, but having

Is there any reason you've singled out Zelensky for the label of megalomaniac?

Not necessarily saying he isn't, just about anyone who achieves the role of president is likely to have some unhealthy lust for power, but I can think of a few other individuals involved here whom the label would fit just as well, if not better...

Granted that Putin is a gangster and a thug, my reading of the likes of John Mearscheimer and Benjamin Abelow is that longstanding NATO expansion Eastwards (contrary to what was said when the Cold War ended) has pushed Russia into a situation where from their perspective a preemptive strike seemed unavoidable.

Whereas Zelensky seems to have no understanding of the threat of nuclearcwar and/or doesnt care, just demanding Russia be annihilated, and ever more Western resources be sent to Ukraine

This does not mean I approve of the invasion, just that I understand it, and this understanding is very different than the incessant pro-war propaganda pumped out by the BBC. And the likes of Chatham House, which seemingly most posters on this thread adhere to.

You are entitled to disagree with me/Abelow/Mearscheimer, but if precedent is anything to go by, this post will not be met in general by a reasoned response, but vile abuse and name-calling. Whatever…Way beyond caring actually

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Well you and other NATO fans here have been unequivocal in your support for Ukraine and their fight. No one here though has done the things you allege about supporting Putin. It's just more bullshit, more projection. You blamed Putin solely for the conflict and advocated removing him as if that would make any difference. When people started questioning your dubious understanding of history you left the thread, just returning to like the odd abusive comment and maybe add your own.

Hypocritical to issue warnings to me for abuse too given the abuse I have received on this thread.

Not sure you have quite got the thread dynamic here..

Support for NATO= not fans of NATO
Criticism of NATO (even if alongside criticism of Russia)= fan of Russia

Once you grasp that, all is clear: indeed George Orwell understood it too…

 

[Flavour]

some proper boring bollocks on this thread

 

[cupid_stunt]

Whereas Zelensky seems to have no understanding of the threat of nuclearcwar and/or doesnt care, just demanding Russia be annihilated, and ever more Western resources be sent to Ukraine

What planet are you on? He has not demanded Russia be annihilated, just that the Russians leave Ukraine, pay for the damage they have done, and face trial for war crimes, all perfectly reasonable.

This does not mean I approve of the invasion, just that I understand it

You clearly don't.