Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[kebabking]

Very similar to the amount of Man Utd supporters you meet who say they are season ticket holders and go home and away

They're from just outside Manchester. Guildford, Greater Manchester.

 

[tim]

Remind me?

Peninsular War

 

[strung out]

The Russian air defence is proving itself remarkably effective today. It's managed to shoot down two of its own helicopters and two of its own jet planes over its own territory.

Edit: talk that some of it came from Ukraine air defence launched from Ukrainian territory (or even Ukrainian infiltrators in Russia).

 

[kebabking]

Greg Bagwell - retired RAF ACM - made the point on the bird app that the more stuff like Storm Shadow there is in the sky, the jumpier the Russian air defence teams get. The jumpier they get, the more likely they are to shoot down their own aircraft in panic...

 

[The39thStep]

They're from just outside Manchester. Guildford, Greater Manchester.

and Devon , they have a factory there

 

[WouldBe]

They're from just outside Manchester. Guildford, Greater Manchester.

And just outside the greater Manchester area there are a lot of supporters in India.

 

[The39thStep]

And just outside the greater Manchester area there are a lot of supporters in India.

Ireland and Kent

 

[Dogsauce]

Rather like in the outdoor world - tents can be any two of light, strong, and cheap, but not all three. You pays your money, and you takes your choice.

An old acquaintance managed to shoplift a terra nova laser super lightweight tent, so it can be done.

 

[Humberto]

I still don't see what option Ukraine has other than to defend itself, its people and its territory. Ok there may be too many sick fucks in Ukraines' ranks (very much a minority), but there are many in Russia's going right up the chain of command to the top. And it is one side waging aggression and one defending itself. So a little bit of solidarity is for me a socialist position; for the struggle and sacrifice of the popular resistance. Putin can go fuck himself.

 

[redsquirrel]

I still don't see what option Ukraine has other than to defend itself, its people and its territory. Ok there may be too many sick fucks in Ukraines' ranks (very much a minority), but there are many in Russia's going right up the chain of command to the top. And it is one side waging aggression and one defending itself. So a little bit of solidarity is for me a socialist position; for the struggle and sacrifice of the popular resistance. Putin can go fuck himself.

But what are the "sides" here?
No offence but your post seems to be falling into a nationalist perspective - Russia vs Ukraine.

The side that must matter for any socialist has to be the working class - Ukrainian, Russian and international.
You talk about the people and territory of Ukraine, but what people? The interests of the Ukrainian state and/or Ukrainian capital may coincide with the interests of Ukrainian labour in certain aspects but there is still the class conflict there. And the interests of the Russian working class are in even sharper conflict with the interests of the Russian state/capital.
There are political differences socialists can have over this conflict, e.g. the level of engagement with the Ukrainian (or Russian) state but the rejection of class for nation is the rejection of socialism for a liberal (or authoritarian) nationalism.

 

[A380]

But what are the "sides" here?
No offence but your post seems to be falling into a nationalist perspective - Russia vs Ukraine.

The side that must matter for any socialist has to be the working class - Ukrainian, Russian and international.
You talk about the people and territory of Ukraine, but what people? The interests of the Ukrainian state and/or Ukrainian capital may coincide with the interests of Ukrainian labour in certain aspects but there is still the class conflict there. And the interests of the Russian working class are in even sharper conflict with the interests of the Russian state/capital.
There are political differences socialists can have over this conflict, e.g. the level of engagement with the Ukrainian (or Russian) state but the rejection of class for nation is the rejection of socialism for a liberal (or authoritarian) nationalism.

So, what are you doing ( or what do you think socialists generally could do) to support the working people of Ukrainian and Russia now in May 2023?

 

[redsquirrel]

I'm part of the group that has made donations to groups in Ukraine and Russian (and maybe Belarus, I can't remember of the top of my head), and has tried to distribute their political reflections to a wider audience. I've also donated personally to charitable collections for Ukrainian workers.
But sadly I think there is not a great deal of practical solidarity that I, or any socialists here in the Uk, can offer to Ukrainian and Russian comrades. One of the few things we can do is to try and combat the liberal nationalist view of the conflict and keep pushing in a small way the importance of class struggle.

(Of course you could have asked Humberto, or those that offer solidarity to the "Ukrainian side," what they are doing practically..

 

[Humberto]

If Russia, the Russian government, mobilised its army to invade Britain, then yes I would resist, support said resistance and expect help. Particularly against an invader that murders, rapes, loots demolishes and much more. The people of Ukraine support the defence and a largely popular and volunteer effort asks those countries who can to help them fight. I support that. I would criticise those who are against that.

 

[Sweet FA]

So, what are you doing ( or what do you think socialists generally could do) to support the working people of Ukrainian and Russia now in May 2023?

Do some memes, chat war and gunwank like everyone else

 

[Pickman's model]

If Russia, the Russian government, mobilised its army to invade Britain, then yes I would resist, support said resistance and expect help. Particularly against an invader that murders, rapes, loots demolishes and much more. The people of Ukraine support the defence and a largely popular and volunteer effort asks those countries who can to help them fight. I support that. I would criticise those who are against that.

Do you think Russian mobilisation against britain - that is, to invade the uk - is now or has ever been remotely likely?

 

[Kaka Tim]

But sadly I think there is not a great deal of practical solidarity that I, or any socialists here in the Uk, can offer to Ukrainian and Russian comrades. One of the few things we can do is to try and combat the liberal nationalist view of the conflict and keep pushing in a small way the importance of class struggle.

Well you could offer solidarity the ukranian socailists and anarchists (and the rest of the ukranian people) who are fighting and dying right now by backing interenational efforts to give them the means to defend themselves.

 

[A380]

Do you think Russian mobilisation against britain is now or has ever been remotely likely?

You mean apart from the use of chemical and radiological weapons in GB?

 

[Humberto]

Do you think Russian mobilisation against britain - that is, to invade the uk - is now or has ever been remotely likely?

No

 

[Pickman's model]

You mean apart from the use of chemical and radiological weapons in GB?

View attachment 374645

I mean in the sense of invading the UK, and tbh as I'm asking Humberto I'm more interested in his opinion in this case than yours. The gru use of polonium and nerve agent isn't really an invasion in any case, was it

 

[Pickman's model]

Well you could offer solidarity the ukranian socailists and anarchists (and the rest of the ukranian people) who are fighting and dying right now by backing interenational efforts to give them the means to defend themselves.

If only we could be assured that advanced weaponry would find its way into the hands of Ukrainian socialists and anarchists.

 

[Pickman's model]

No

So bigging up how you'd resist etc, it's not really ever going to be put to the test

 

[Humberto]

So bigging up how you'd resist etc, it's not really ever going to be put to the test

No I support the people of Ukraine in their defence because that is the reality they are facing. Invasion by Russian armed forces and all that goes with it. Solidarity.

 

[A380]

I mean in the sense of invading the UK, and tbh as I'm asking Humberto I'm more interested in his opinion in this case than yours. The gru use of polonium and nerve agent isn't really an invasion in any case, was it

But you didn’t specify invasion. As an Uber-pedant I know you would feel cheated if you weren’t held to the highest standards.

These attacks were the deployment of military assets against people in the UK by Russian government forces.

But fair do’s on wanting to read Humberto ’s views rather than mine. I have that effect on most people.

 

[Pickman's model]

But you didn’t specify invasion. As an Uber-pedant I know you would feel cheated if you weren’t held to the highest standards.

These attacks were the deployment of military assets against people in the UK by Russian government forces.

But fair do’s on wanting to read Humberto ’s views rather than mine. I have that effect on most people.

1) invasion is mentioned in the post I replied to;
2) before your reply was posted I'd added it to my post.

You can claim to be an uber-pedant but you're more of a traditional minicab one

 

[redsquirrel]

Well you could offer solidarity the ukranian socailists and anarchists (and the rest of the ukranian people) who are fighting and dying right now by backing interenational efforts to give them the means to defend themselves.

By what means?
Reposting NAFO cunts like that The39thStep highlighted a few pages back? By marching on guns for Ukraine demos (if such things actually existed)? By voting for Labour other liberal parties? What does this backing of international efforts actually mean?

If Russia, the Russian government, mobilised its army to invade Britain, then yes I would resist, support said resistance and expect help. Particularly against an invader that murders, rapes, loots demolishes and much more. The people of Ukraine support the defence and a largely popular and volunteer effort asks those countries who can to help them fight. I support that. I would criticise those who are against that.

Again where is any class perspective here?
All the people of Ukraine support the defence? Some comrades have decided to join the armed forces and fight against the invasion by the Russian armed forces, other comrades have felt that signing up is not consistent with their principles - I'm not going to condemn either group.

No I support the people of Ukraine in their defence because that is the reality they are facing. Invasion by Russian armed forces and all that goes with it. Solidarity.

Support how? What solidarity?

 

[A380]

1) invasion is mentioned in the post I replied to;
2) before your reply was posted I'd added it to my post.

You can claim to be an uber-pedant but you're more of a traditional minicab one

Point 2 was too late. Once a post is replied to then the code of the pedant applies. Live by the sword...

ETA I'm definitely more of a Hackney pedant.

 

[existentialist]

I still don't see what option Ukraine has other than to defend itself, its people and its territory. Ok there may be too many sick fucks in Ukraines' ranks (very much a minority), but there are many in Russia's going right up the chain of command to the top. And it is one side waging aggression and one defending itself. So a little bit of solidarity is for me a socialist position; for the struggle and sacrifice of the popular resistance. Putin can go fuck himself.

There's going to be a few (at least potentially) sick fucks in any organisation or nation. But a fish rots from the head, and a lot, if not all, of that sick fuckery can be stamped out if the leadership is doing its job. Which, in Russia's case, it clearly isn't. Unless sick fuckery is policy for Russia - but I'll leave that for others to debate.

 

[Pickman's model]

Point 2 was too late. Once a post is replied to then the code of the pedant applies. Live by the sword...

This would appear to be more in the way of a cross-thread beef as you're not actually pointing to any pedantry

 

[Humberto]

Again where is any class perspective here?
All the people of Ukraine support the defence? Some comrades have decided to join the armed forces and fight against the invasion by the Russian armed forces, other comrades have felt that signing up is not consistent with their principles - I'm not going to condemn either group.

I didn't condemn. That seems more your objective if I'm honest. I said solidarity with those fighting the invasion. And yeah I would criticise those who would leave them hanging in desperation, to be left isolated and overrun with all the predictable results that would follow.

 

[A380]

This would appear to be more in the way of a cross-thread beef as you're not actually pointing to any pedantry

Me? heaven forfend.

But I was nit picking that there had been mobilisation by Russia against the UK. Pedantic in terms of context and adding little to the debate sure, but still I'm technically both correct and potentially annoying