Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Pickman's model]

As seen in Ukraine stickers appearing at Excel Arms Fair soon.

Sure they'll be sending a sizeable delegation

 

[weltweit]

All these Arms fairs and defence dealings are one thing, but I am genuinely interested to know how Challenger will do? Will it be a match for the German tank with its smoothbore gun for example? If it does have weaknesses, and if some are destroyed will the current modifications to the turret solve them?

 

[kebabking]

Chally has the most capable armour of the three Western tanks, the gun is proven in combat (it holds the record for longest range tank-on-tank kill, just short of 5km). It's downside is that it's less mobile/agile than the others.

Tanks have three qualities - mobility, armour, and firepower. The more mobile it is, the less capable it's armour it has. The more heavily protected it is, the less mobile it is because it's engine is shifting more weight. Every positive choice you make in a tanks design/build comes with a downside - the trick is deciding which properties you value most, and which negatives you can live with, and build your training and doctrine around.

Rather like in the outdoor world - tents can be any two of light, strong, and cheap, but not all three. You pays your money, and you takes your choice.

 

[weltweit]

..
Rather like in the outdoor world - tents can be any two of light, strong, and cheap, but not all three. You pays your money, and you takes your choice.

In the photography world, Tripods are the same, light strong and cheap, you can have 2 features.

 

[Sweet FA]

All these Arms fairs and defence dealings are one thing, but I am genuinely interested to know how Challenger will do? Will it be a match for the German tank with its smoothbore gun for example? If it does have weaknesses, and if some are destroyed will the current modifications to the turret solve them?

 

[Artaxerxes]

As seen in Ukraine stickers appearing at Excel Arms Fair soon.

If it's any consolation the Russian arms industry must surely be suffering given the poor showing of its equipment at doing anything but killing civilians


Though tbf that's also a selling point for those likeliest to buy it

 

[gosub]

A showcase for the UK arms industry.

I'm quite sure the Ukrainians would live to hear that other missiles are available. However it's there and IS a bit of a game changer. Not just UK been throwing their toys into this particular proving ground

 

[kebabking]

Russian exports have been taking a hammering - India as an example have been moving away as fast as they can.

The Russians have go two problems - firstly that their stuff has somewhat failed to live up to the promises in the brochure, and that's the versions they buy themselves, let alone the crap they sell overseas, and the second is that their production lines are all allocated for Russian mil orders, and failing to deliver them, so if you order an SU-33 or whatever, it ain't arriving anytime soon.

They also have a long history of being utterly shit at post delivery support - and, indeed, delivery...

All the western stuff that's being used is well established on the market - GMLRS has been in service for more that 20 years, Storm Shadow the same, AIM-120, the missile used in the NASAMS surface to air missile system, came into service when Tony Blair was a backbench MP - Brimstone is 20+ years old. Chally 2, Abrams, and Leo2 are all children of the 80's and 90's...

 

[The39thStep]

I'm quite sure the Ukrainians would live to hear that other missiles are available. However it's there and IS a bit of a game changer. Not just UK been throwing their toys into this particular proving ground

Do you mean love ?

 

[LDC]

Do you mean love ?

Freudian slip of the year.

 

[The39thStep]

If it's any consolation the Russian arms industry must surely be suffering given the poor showing of its equipment at doing anything but killing civilians


Though tbf that's also a selling point for those likeliest to buy it

Really need to construct a hierarchy of states whose armed forces don’t kill civilians .

 

[The39thStep]

Freudian slip of the year.

Tbh I seem to do this sort of thing quite often .

 

[A380]

Really need to construct a hierarchy of states whose armed forces don’t kill civilians .

1. Andora
2. Vatican City

Probably it?

 

[gosub]

Freudian slip of the year.

Fat fingered typo. I'm sure some of them won't. Bakmut looks like hell

 

[The39thStep]

1. Andora
2. Vatican City

Probably it?

Probably and depressingly yes .

I always remember meeting some German lads on a train to Lisbon decades ago and asked where they came from and they said Dresden . About same age as me and I’m thinking , my father ( who was a bomber pilot) told me he’d bombed Dresden during the war .

 

[strung out]

Probably and depressingly yes .

I always remember meeting some German lads on a train to Lisbon decades ago and asked where they came from and they said Dresden . About same age as me and I’m thinking , my father ( who was a bomber pilot) told me he’d bombed Dresden during the war .

At least you had something to make conversation with them about.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Probably and depressingly yes .

I always remember meeting some German lads on a train to Lisbon decades ago and asked where they came from and they said Dresden . About same age as me and I’m thinking , my father ( who was a bomber pilot) told me he’d bombed Dresden during the war .

Probably for the best you didn't ask what theres was up to

 

[WouldBe]

As seen in Ukraine stickers appearing at Excel Arms Fair soon.

If the Russians were to turn up they'd have to bring cardboard cutouts as that's about all they've got left.

 

[spitfire]

Probably and depressingly yes .

I always remember meeting some German lads on a train to Lisbon decades ago and asked where they came from and they said Dresden . About same age as me and I’m thinking , my father ( who was a bomber pilot) told me he’d bombed Dresden during the war .

The Irish Defence Forces probably have a low to zero tally. I can't find much evidence of civilian casualties caused by them (after a quick search, could yet be proved wrong). Do the combatants at Jadotville count as civilians, they were pretty spiky... 48 Irish soldiers have died on peacekeeping operations in Lebanon.

The modern Irish army was founded 1 Oct 1924 so after the civil war before anyone pipes up.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Probably and depressingly yes .

I always remember meeting some German lads on a train to Lisbon decades ago and asked where they came from and they said Dresden . About same age as me and I’m thinking , my father ( who was a bomber pilot) told me he’d bombed Dresden during the war .

There’s a lot of that, remember first trip to Dam when was 17 and thinking that the cunt that grassed Anne Frank up is probably still living here, going about their daily life as if nothing happened.

 

[Sweet FA]

the cunt that grassed Anne Frank up

was Jewish I think and was trying to save their own family



eta Anne Frank betrayal suspect identified after 77 years.

 

[weltweit]

.. Chally 2, Abrams, and Leo2 are all children of the 80's and 90's...

Do they all use depleted uranium in their munitions?

 

[kebabking]

Yup...

 

[Chz]

All these Arms fairs and defence dealings are one thing, but I am genuinely interested to know how Challenger will do? Will it be a match for the German tank with its smoothbore gun for example? If it does have weaknesses, and if some are destroyed will the current modifications to the turret solve them?

I don't think the difference in armour and mobility is huge, at least by comparison to the 2A6 Leopard version - older ones are a bit less armoured.
The smoothbore vs. rifled has a long history, and the reason it's stuck around is that there are good arguments for either way of doing it. The Army is finally going smoothbore, but it's mainly because the post-Twencen tank fleet is just too small to justify producing unique ammunition for. Not because they don't believe in the rifled gun.

The argument is based on this: Is a tank a special-purpose weapon for eliminating other tanks that can also support infantry against lesser targets? If so, smoothbore is best for sabot rounds and sabot rounds kill tanks. Is the tank primarily for infantry support, but needs to kill enemy tanks as a part of that task? If so, rifled barrel and HESH rounds are best against everything that is not a tank. Including armoured vehicles with less than a foot of armour on them. Rifled barrels are now going away because a smoothbore is still 90% as good at support tasks and rifled sabot rounds require complex, unique ammunition. Not because it's inferior in any way other than that.

So I expect them to perform about the same is the short of it. They can both frontally shrug off a round from a T-90 at range, and successfully engage said T-90 at a longer range than it can manage. And how they perform around infantry operation will depend far more on how they're used than on the tank's specific characteristics. FWIW, having the sensors and accuracy to engage at range is the most important part. If they can identify a BMP-3 and knock it out before the missiles start getting fired, it's a giant win because the best Russian ATGMs do have the ability to knock out a modern tank.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

1. Andora
2. Vatican City

Probably it?

Costa Rica - they abolished their army.

 

[Spymaster]

There’s a lot of that, remember first trip to Dam when was 17 and thinking that the cunt that grassed Anne Frank up is probably still living here, going about their daily life as if nothing happened.

If you believed every Dutchman who says he had relatives in the resistance in WW2, the Dutch resistance was bigger than the Werhmacht.

 

[kebabking]

If you believed every Dutchman who says he had relatives in the resistance in WW2, the Dutch resistance was bigger than the Werhmacht.

Like the balcony of the Iranian Embassy, but with more chipsh und mayonaysh...

 

[gosub]

Like the balcony of the Iranian Embassy, but with more chipsh und mayonaysh...

Had one if the real ones on David Dickinson the other day...selling his medals

 

[kebabking]

I don't think the difference in armour and mobility is huge, at least by comparison to the 2A6 Leopard version - older ones are a bit less armoured.
The smoothbore vs. rifled has a long history, and the reason it's stuck around is that there are good arguments for either way of doing it. The Army is finally going smoothbore, but it's mainly because the post-Twencen tank fleet is just too small to justify producing unique ammunition for. Not because they don't believe in the rifled gun.

The argument is based on this: Is a tank a special-purpose weapon for eliminating other tanks that can also support infantry against lesser targets? If so, smoothbore is best for sabot rounds and sabot rounds kill tanks. Is the tank primarily for infantry support, but needs to kill enemy tanks as a part of that task? If so, rifled barrel and HESH rounds are best against everything that is not a tank. Including armoured vehicles with less than a foot of armour on them. Rifled barrels are now going away because a smoothbore is still 90% as good at support tasks and rifled sabot rounds require complex, unique ammunition. Not because it's inferior in any way other than that.

So I expect them to perform about the same is the short of it. They can both frontally shrug off a round from a T-90 at range, and successfully engage said T-90 at a longer range than it can manage. And how they perform around infantry operation will depend far more on how they're used than on the tank's specific characteristics. FWIW, having the sensors and accuracy to engage at range is the most important part. If they can identify a BMP-3 and knock it out before the missiles start getting fired, it's a giant win because the best Russian ATGMs do have the ability to knock out a modern tank.

Pretty much this ^ - the thing I'd add is that rifled barrels produced a shell that was more accurate at longer ranges. Smoothbore barrels, and the ammunition to go down them, is cheaper/easier to produce, and that's before Chz 's point about the cost efficiencies of mass production.

Modern fire control systems, which adjust the barrel in ways the gunner can't, take into account an endless number of factors that will effect where the round goes - they've effectively made the difference in accuracy between smooth and rifled about zero, but when the smooth or rifled decisions were made, that wasn't the case.

 

[The39thStep]

If you believed every Dutchman who says he had relatives in the resistance in WW2, the Dutch resistance was bigger than the Werhmacht.

Very similar to the amount of Man Utd supporters you meet who say they are season ticket holders and go home and away