Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Which is better? Werewolves or Vampires? Or Zombies? Or are they all crap?

Werewolves. Dogs are cute.

 

[Raheem]

Werewolves probably smell of dog, though.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

I cry no tears for dead Azov Nazis.

How about address how half of those killed in the Holocaust died in Poland and the indifference at best of much of the Polish population to this, and at worst actively hunting down those deemed to die?

Do you know what an occupation is?

Fukssake

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

I can't actually describe how fucking angry I am about casual dismissal, ney, approval of massacres of innocent academics and civilians and the dismissal of them as "fascistic".

Fucking disgraceful even by Urban standards.

 

[kebabking]

Interesting. I wouldn't want to tarnish every Latvian with a duty to explain Latvia in WW2 however as a senior diplomat did she address the issue of the holocaust in Latvia and fighting for the Nazis? What did she think of NATO and Russia signing up to the Partnership for Peace programme in the 1990s ?

( I appreciate that this was your work role so it may not have been pertinent for you to raise such issues)

I'll be honest and say that I've found my time in Eastern Europe to be an opportunity to keep my ears open and my hole shut. We - western Europe's - understanding of this stuff is so limited that you could stop pretty much anyone in the street and they'd know more about the stone age, nuclear physics, and molecular biology than they'd know about Eastern Europe in the 20th century.

Yes, as you say, it's not my place to ask difficult questions about Latvians in the SS, and I know there's a great deal of convenient airbrushing, sweeping under the carpet, and blame shifting in the 'Great Big Book of History' that's been written (rewritten?) since the Sovs collapsed - that said, from living out here for a year now (I live as a civilian, in town, I shop in town, eat in town, spend free time seeing the sights or walking in the mountains) I'd absolutely say that the emnity towards the Russians (as opposed to just the Soviets) is a deep, endless, historic and yet very personal. The emnity towards the Germans (as opposed to just the Nazis) is there as well, and its not to be dismissed. The Germans are partners, but they are not friends.

 

[Pickman's model]

I try to keep my Whataboutisms within a century or so.

If you're going to bring up what Russia did to Poland there's more history than you make out. Your line sounds good till it's given a moment's thought.

 

[StoneRoad]

I mean, I live in Poland, am half Hungarian, and am married to a half-pole.

And I could give my insight, but personally I'd rather listen to a washed out 50 something British trade unionist bloke on the REAL reason why Russia is so great.

My late father, whose trade-unionism and politics were rather more left-wing than Lenin [or so it seemed to me] had quite a number of Polish Esperantists amongst his international friends.
I met several of them when we went to Bialystok in 2009 [when he was 90] and had a few days holiday after the congress. We were escorted to several sites related to the Holocaust and from discussions I came to understand just how much they despised the German Nazis and the events around WW2 and the soviet occupation in the postwar decades.
FYI - Zammenhof, the guy who invented the international language was Jewish, and most of his family were victims. The survivors were sheltered in the general population, or managed to evade capture and escape abroad.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Hardens attitudes reading shit like that.

F**k off, Russia was happy to carve up Europe with Hitler and sell him the fuel and materials to invade western europe.

 

[Pickman's model]

F**k off, Russia was happy to carve up Europe with Hitler and sell him the fuel and materials to invade western europe.

I think you'll find Russia carved up Europe with the UK and USA. By contrast, stalin merely carved up Poland with hitler

 

[sleaterkinney]

I think you'll find Russia carved up Europe with the UK and USA. By contrast, stalin merely carved up Poland with hitler

Only Poland?

 

[Pickman's model]

Only Poland?

You're right, I should have mentioned the baltic states and you should have mentioned yalta.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

And bits of Finland and Romania.

 

[sleaterkinney]

You're right, I should have mentioned the baltic states and you should have mentioned yalta.

No, because we can talk about what Stalin did or what Putin is doing by itself. No need to minimise it.

 

[Pickman's model]

No, because we can talk about what Stalin did or what Putin is doing by itself. No need to minimise it.

What stalin did in 1939 or what stalin did in 1945-49? You know about the latter, the bit you're minimising by refusing to talk about it

 

[The39thStep]

I'll be honest and say that I've found my time in Eastern Europe to be an opportunity to keep my ears open and my hole shut. We - western Europe's - understanding of this stuff is so limited that you could stop pretty much anyone in the street and they'd know more about the stone age, nuclear physics, and molecular biology than they'd know about Eastern Europe in the 20th century.

Yes, as you say, it's not my place to ask difficult questions about Latvians in the SS, and I know there's a great deal of convenient airbrushing, sweeping under the carpet, and blame shifting in the 'Great Big Book of History' that's been written (rewritten?) since the Sovs collapsed - that said, from living out here for a year now (I live as a civilian, in town, I shop in town, eat in town, spend free time seeing the sights or walking in the mountains) I'd absolutely say that the emnity towards the Russians (as opposed to just the Soviets) is a deep, endless, historic and yet very personal. The emnity towards the Germans (as opposed to just the Nazis) is there as well, and its not to be dismissed. The Germans are partners, but they are not friends.

Appreciate that in work that those questions would not be permitted.

Absolutely agree about the listening and the need to listen to as many voices as possible including those that we might find difficult and including those that aren't the loudest or the ones that are ignored or sidelined because their views don't fit either a pro-Russian or pro-Western narrative.

It's not always easy to ask 'difficult ' questions abroad, even after listening .I had two very tense and difficult experiences with loyalists in Northern Ireland even though I had spent time over years drinking and having a chat with them and gently probing in a very polite manner. Here in Portugal for example I am on safer ground having been here longer and am fairly well grounded now in a local community. However I have met people who support Bolsonera, Chega and in the past, the Salazar regime, have met some again and no doubt will meet them again and as much as we will probably beat around the bush we will no doubt return to the 'difficult' questions.

From what I know from reading those who write and discuss the post soviet zone I agree with you about the enmity against the Russians in Latvia ( the compulsory citizen test for all Russians despite how many years they have lived there was covered by Reuters over the past week for example) . I also agree with you about the memory lapse amongst large sections of Latvian society regarding their role in the holocaust and those that volunteered to fight for the Nazis.

Memory in my experience is frequently used by the state, by political actors etc sometimes to divide, and sometimes to unite. The whole question of memory is a disputed one, hence the attempt in some countries where there has been generational divide and even civil war to try and find truth and reconciliation concerning uncomfortable histories. My later post was a suggestion that it is possible to construct a narrative that recognises the complexities of victims under both fascist and Soviet regimes that allows us to have those difficult conversations.

Hope you continue to settle in abroad.

 

[sleaterkinney]

What stalin did in 1939 or what stalin did in 1945-49? You know about the latter, the bit you're minimising by refusing to talk about it

The bit where he said “Never mind. We'll do it our own way later."

 

[Pickman's model]

The bit where he said “Never mind. We'll do it our own way later."

Soz you've lost me now, which post are you referring to?

 

[sleaterkinney]

Soz you've lost me now, which post are you referring to?

I’m replying to yours. What did he do in 45-49?

 

[Pickman's model]

I’m replying to yours. What did he do in 45-49?

1) agreed division of Europe with us/UK
2) put it into effect

 

[Chz]

It's a shame we don't seem to have any Polish posters who could share their thoughts on shrugging off Soviet atrocities and blaming Poles for the Holocaust

Speaking as a half-Pole, I'm ashamed to say that there's no way I could keep it either polite or contributing in any way to the discussion. So, unlike some, I have the sense to keep my trap shut.

 

[sleaterkinney]

1) agreed division of Europe with us/UK
2) put it into effect

So he stuck to what was agreed?.

 

[Pickman's model]

So he stuck to what was agreed?.

That's not the point, of course. Surprised to see you bigging up stalin as a man of his word, by the by.

 

[sleaterkinney]

That's not the point, of course. Surprised to see you bigging up stalin as a man of his word, by the by.

I'm not a fan of his at all, are you?

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not a fan of his at all, are you?

That makes it all the more peculiar to see you suggest he was a man of honour.

 

[sleaterkinney]

That makes it all the more peculiar to see you suggest he was a man of honour.

Where did I do this?

 

[Pickman's model]

Where did I do this?

On this very thread

 

[sleaterkinney]

On this very thread

I asked where?. This is bizarre, even by your standards.

 

[Nylock]

Meanwhile, in current Ukraine war developments:

Ukraine to be supplied Storm Shadow cruise missiles by the UK

 

[existentialist]

Meanwhile, in current Ukraine war developments:

Ukraine to be supplied Storm Shadow cruise missiles by the UK

Stop derailing the thread

 

[spitfire]

Sounds like absolute chaos around Bakhmut. All sorts of claims and counter claims going on.

Even the Russians are now saying the UA have reclaimed up to 3k of territory and its all down to bad comms and power struggles.