Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[The39thStep]

I think that if we called it a kleptocracy, we'd at least flush from cover the Russia supporters who use the vagueness of "fascism" to excuse it from its crimes.

 

[A380]

So if he weighs as much as a duck...

 

[existentialist]

I don't know who that is.

 

[Cid]

I don't know who that is.

Witchfinder general. Well, Vincent Price hamming it up as the Witchfinder General.

 

[The39thStep]

I don't know who that is.

Cid explained , it's a really good film

 

[gosub]

Conversely - I'm kind of fuzzy on the precise definition (not least because I think precise definitions are the antithesis of practical politics) of fascism - it might be helpful to describe the ways in which Russia is not a fascist/quasi-fascist state?

Is 5/10 enough for quasi-fascist? 8/10 enough for fascist - or does it have to be 10/10?

At what point does it not matter for all practical purposes?

Am remembering a Jonathan Meades TV program about fascism being ill defined.


Is a difficult one cos you have the background of CCCP was going one way under Yeltsin then Putin came in reversing things. So probably boiling frog from Putin s first term.


Not feeling like I Godwin'd mentioning Hitler....It was the Russians that brought up Nazis whilst trying to put a fig leaf over an illegal occupation. Though to be fair Hitler managed to annex far more on 'friendly' terms b4 getting called out

 

[gosub]

Latest Ukraine satellite images reveal devastation of Russian invasion

The consequences of war, seen from the sky.

www.politico.eu

 

[Mezzer]

Latest Ukraine satellite images reveal devastation of Russian invasion

The consequences of war, seen from the sky.

www.politico.eu

Many of these locations appear to have no strategic value. Destruction and terror to subjugate the population seems to be the main aim.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Many of these locations appear to have no strategic value. Destruction and terror to subjugate the population seems to be the main aim.

fucking nato.

 

[Kaka Tim]

The "Is russia fascist?" debate I find a bit "how many stormtroopers can goose step on a pin head?"

Is certainly has fascistic elements- ultranationalism, authoritairan, militaristic, intimidation/perscution/assaination of poltical oponents, suppresion of dissent and free media, instiutionliased persucition of minorities and near genocidal arguments to justify its warmongering and subjecation of conqurerd people. Weather that qulifies it as offically fascist or well on the way is not really important IMHO- it certainly qualifies as fucking horrible regime that is doing horrible things on a very large scale.

 

[existentialist]

Witchfinder general. Well, Vincent Price hamming it up as the Witchfinder General.

Ah. That explains it.

 

[The39thStep]

The "Is russia fascist?" debate I find a bit "how many stormtroopers can goose step on a pin head?"

Is certainly has fascistic elements- ultranationalism, authoritairan, militaristic, intimidation/perscution/assaination of poltical oponents, suppresion of dissent and free media, instiutionliased persucition of minorities and near genocidal arguments to justify its warmongering and subjecation of conqurerd people. Weather that qulifies it as offically fascist or well on the way is not really important IMHO- it certainly qualifies as fucking horrible regime that is doing horrible things on a very large scale.

Ok , some good points but when did Russia reach that stage approximately?

 

[LDC]

Ok , some good points but when did Russia reach that stage approximately?

Given all the various elements Kaka Tim has mentioned (many of which developed over years and not always in a linear way) isn't an answer to that impossible to give beyond a broad span of years? My very limited knowledge of Russia means I couldn't give an decent answer without engaging in a huge reading and study project, and the answer wouldn't impact where we are now anyway would it?

 

[teqniq]

FFS:

 

[The39thStep]

Given all the various elements Kaka Tim has mentioned (many of which developed over years and not always in a linear way) isn't an answer to that impossible to give beyond a broad span of years? My very limited knowledge of Russia means I couldn't give an decent answer without engaging in a huge reading and study project, and the answer wouldn't impact where we are now anyway would it?

I'm fine with a broad span of years pal and a rough threshold

 

[agricola]

The "Is russia fascist?" debate I find a bit "how many stormtroopers can goose step on a pin head?"

Is certainly has fascistic elements- ultranationalism, authoritairan, militaristic, intimidation/perscution/assaination of poltical oponents, suppresion of dissent and free media, instiutionliased persucition of minorities and near genocidal arguments to justify its warmongering and subjecation of conqurerd people. Weather that qulifies it as offically fascist or well on the way is not really important IMHO- it certainly qualifies as fucking horrible regime that is doing horrible things on a very large scale.

TBF I don't think "fascist" is that useful a word - I mean, to one extent or another they've been doing that for the past couple of hundred years. They've been the victim of it too, mind.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I'm fine with a broad span of years pal and a rough threshold

Dunno. Under Stalin you might as well have done, save that fascists and Nazis were all so anti-Bolshevik. The USSR retreated from some of that after Stalin died, but left in place the authoritarianism, nationalism, militarism. Then perestroika, Gorbachev and Yeltsin, break-up of the USSR. Putin comes along and it's been a gradual movement towards a variant of fascism. There was not the same need to seize power that the Nazis, or Mussolini or Franco had, because Putin was already in power, so the change was more gradual. Russia today is not as authoritarian as it was under communism, but the direction of travel is obvious.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Ok , some good points but when did Russia reach that stage approximately?

In its present form - I guess it grew out of the chaos and upheaval of the immediate post communist era -break up of empire with former regions going independant, insecurity, sense of grievance, yearn for a "strong man" type shiz, sense of threat - all explioted and encrougated by putin and co with his bid to make russia strong and important again . So increasingly manifest from checnhyan war and accelerating as Putins increasingly aggresive actions looked to be succesfful - thus reinforcing and justifying the nationalist militarism. All leading up to where we are today I guess - not any sort of expert but thats the way it seems to me.
Whilst it is not Nazi germany - there is obvious parreles with the increasingly beligierant trajectory fuelled by insecurity, victim compex and (real and imagined) grievance - whilst the US and EU unsuccesfully tried to respond effectively to a state that wasnt playing by the supposed rules.

 

[RedRedRose]

Ok , some good points but when did Russia reach that stage approximately?

Russian foreign policy from 2014, intensifying further after 2016.

In terms of internally, Russification, heavy-handed censorship begins from 2018/19.

Putin's Plan to Russify the Caucasus

On June 19, the Russian Duman adopted a bill making education in 34 of Russia’s 35 official languages—every language except Russian—optional, limiting instruction in ethnic-minority languagesto two hours per week

www.foreignaffairs.com

Russia passes law to jail people for 15 days for 'disrespecting' government

Law allowing courts to fine or jail offenders is reminiscent of Soviet-era laws used to target dissidents, say critics

www.theguardian.com

Putin approves law targeting journalists as 'foreign agents'

Move described by rights activists as scare tactic to stifle criticism of Russian government

www.theguardian.com

Before that, you did have anti-LGBT legislation, links with nationalist groups, dodgy elections etc etc.

 

[The39thStep]

TBF I don't think "fascist" is that useful a word - I mean, to one extent or another they've been doing that for the past couple of hundred years. They've been the victim of it too, mind.

Some behaviours that we associate elements within or examples of fascism occurred in the past couple of hundred of years ( think of what happened in imperialism and colonialism for example. However, the consensus is that fascism began as an ideology and movement in the 20th century.

 

[The39thStep]

Yes Enzo Traverso for example argues contemporary neo-fascism may take a different form to that of classic fascism’s mass rallies and blatant propaganda and also describes that having got into power electorally that it begins to hollow out democracy from within. Ischenko and others also argue that far from the mobilisation of masses in support of a imperialist ideology, as under classic fascism, Russian society in fact suffers from depoliticisation and that it's this deep depoliticisation that the support for Putin's regime is based.

 

[pug]

Theres a lot of support from the Russian orthodox church for this war.

 

[StoneRoad]

Theres a lot of support from the Russian orthodox church for this war.

because that church is, effectively, controlled by the kremlin.

 

[Leighsw2]

Many of these locations appear to have no strategic value. Destruction and terror to subjugate the population seems to be the main aim.

I know, I know, but can we get back to the main debate - is Russia really fascist?

 

[Spandex]

because that church is, effectively, controlled by the kremlin.

And because that church is, literally, controlled by comically dodgy Patriarch Kirill: former KGB operative, made billions importing duty free cigarettes and alcohol, lover of expensive watches, described Putin's rule as "a miracle of God".

 

[The39thStep]

I know, I know, but can we get back to the main debate - is Russia really fascist?

You still advocating that people 'like' maomao are put in internment camps ?

 

[T & P]

The tank display on Russia's Victory Day Parade is on a different level this year. I wouldn't blame Ukraine for raising the white flag by the end of the day in view of such impressive show of strength...

 

[LDC]

It's just historical rememberance though surely? It's like pointing at the Lancaster or Spitfire when they do flypast on events here and thinking that's the RAF now isn't it?

 

[strung out]

It's just historical rememberance though surely? It's like pointing at the Lancaster or Spitfire when they do flypast on events here and thinking that's the RAF now isn't it?

Most of the pisstaking has been because normally Russia sends out scores of tanks, and hundreds of military vehicles for their Victory Day parade each year.

This year, only one tank appeared, among a total display of 50 odd vehicles, markedly down on previous years.

 

[strung out]

Good thread here charting the decline in the Russian victory parade each year: