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Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

Anymore on the Russia is fash issue and at one point did it become fascist (especially those posters who have previously said in other comments that it is or that Putin is like Hitler) ?
 
The39thStep said:
Anymore on the Russia is fash issue and at one point did it become fascist (especially those posters who have previously said in other comments that it is or that Putin is like Hitler) ?
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Conversely - I'm kind of fuzzy on the precise definition (not least because I think precise definitions are the antithesis of practical politics) of fascism - it might be helpful to describe the ways in which Russia is not a fascist/quasi-fascist state?

Is 5/10 enough for quasi-fascist? 8/10 enough for fascist - or does it have to be 10/10?

At what point does it not matter for all practical purposes?
 
While Russia's gone seriously authoritarian, I don't think it meets the definition of fascist.
I agree it could be a good discussion for a new thread, but I don't feel confident starting one as this is a bit beyond my ken tbh.
I will say though, I'm certain things wouldn't become any less right wing/authoritarian in the event of Putin's demise/defenestration/dethronement.
 
Dystopiary said:
While Russia's gone seriously authoritarian, I don't think it meets the definition of fascist.
I agree it could be a good discussion for a new thread, but I don't feel confident starting one as this is a bit beyond my ken tbh.
I will say though, I'm certain things wouldn't become any less right wing/authoritarian in the event of Putin's demise/defenestration/dethronement.
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I think I agree, but there's plenty of clever people like Snyder that argue it is...


But of course they're just throwing insults around really, not thinking it through... :rolleyes:
 
kebabking said:
Conversely - I'm kind of fuzzy on the precise definition (not least because I think precise definitions are the antithesis of practical politics) of fascism - it might be helpful to describe the ways in which Russia is not a fascist/quasi-fascist state?

Is 5/10 enough for quasi-fascist? 8/10 enough for fascist - or does it have to be 10/10?

At what point does it not matter for all practical purposes?
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I don't think there is a precise definition however there are a number of writers who have tried to list or describe key components and its variants. It's also a concept that like any political movement within capitalism is dynamic and flexible. Conversely one of the criticisms of using the term is that its used too much and without any attempt at definition. Posters on these boards have described over the year or so a number of states, movements and individuals as fascist, for example Boris Johnson, Farage , UKIP , Trump . Hungary.

However, you did say on a previous post that Russia was fascist and that Putin was like Hitler . I'm not going to hold you to that as it may have been said in exasperation at another poster. If you feel 8/10 qualifies it, fine.

I think the harder question is if it is fascist or even quasi fascist , when did it become that?
 
The39thStep said:
I don't think there is a precise definition however there are a number of writers who have tried to list or describe key components and its variants. It's also a concept that like any political movement within capitalism is dynamic and flexible. Conversely one of the criticisms of using the term is that its used too much and without any attempt at definition. Posters on these boards have described over the year or so a number of states, movements and individuals as fascist, for example Boris Johnson, Farage , UKIP , Trump . Hungary.

However, you did say on a previous post that Russia was fascist and that Putin was like Hitler . I'm not going to hold you to that as it may have been said in exasperation at another poster. If you feel 8/10 qualifies it, fine.

I think the harder question is if it is fascist or even quasi fascist , when did it become that?
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...would make a great thread opener.
 
The39thStep said:
As far as I'm aware as clever as Snyder is he isn't a poster on the boards.
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No, but people on here saying Russia is fascist (or close) have obviously read stuff like that, have thought and/or discussed the topic and then come to their conclusions, they're not just throwing it out as an insult.

It's not a great surprise some people are very unlikely to admit it is (or close enough) as it complicates their political position on the war.
 
A380 said:
The simplistic issue and problem is that the label of 'fascism' has come to have (at least three) different usages. It is often used as shorthand for any autocratic and dictatorial government (that doesn't have a fig leaf of redistribution about it.) So regimes such as Putin's Russia or Iran are described as fascist. Then the, closer to 'true fascism' definition that sees a degree of exultation to 'nation' and or 'race' above the individual and uses that philosophy to drive economic and social control. Then there is the tendency for people on the left and in the centre to use it as a label for any far right ideology wether that be truly fascist or indeed authoritarian or not.

(Plus of course the fourth 'Student Grant' school of politics to label anyone with a different political approach to the speaker , or any state or public servant as facist!).

On the the one hand it is useful shorthand, but on the other can lead to the kind of issues we see on this thread and elsewhere.

A thread might be interesting to unpick it from this thread on the war.

My Personal view, worth no more and no less than anyone else's, is that the Putin regime doesn't fit 'my' definition of fascism, instead its a kleptocratic authoritarian regime, lead by a man who is trying to make it a dictatorship.
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I think that if we called it a kleptocracy, we'd at least flush from cover the Russia supporters who use the vagueness of "fascism" to excuse it from its crimes.
 
hmm does Putin's ineptitude distract from hitler comparisons

at least at the start of a global conflict



:hmm:
 
LDC said:
No, but people on here saying Russia is fascist (or close) have obviously read stuff like that, have thought and/or discussed the topic and then come to their conclusions, they're not just throwing it out as an insult.

It's not a great surprise some people are very unlikely to admit it is (or close enough) as it complicates their political position on the war.
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I’m not sure what people have read tbh I suspect some only read things that confirm there views .

Aren’t the origins of Russia=Fascism rooted in the Cold War ? From what I’ve read on , for example , US coverage of Russia there isn’t a great deal after the War of Intervention until WW2 and then that is initially mixed and then largely favourable .
 
Dystopiary said:
I couldn't watch it, too grim. Gonna try and read a transcript.
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I can sum it up for you.
Sept 2022 Prigozhin recruiting prisoners said:
Come join my mercenary company! Good wages, pardons all round, freedom or death etc
Click to expand...
May 2023 Prigozhin pointing to corpses of same prisoners said:
SHOIGU! GERASIMOV! U DID THIS!
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