Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[strung out]

According to the Washington Correspondent for Channel Four speaking a few days ago in the aftermath of the leak of US Intelligence documents there are,from UK alone, anything up to fifty Special Forces Units currently on the ground in Ukraine.Is it likely ,assuming this is about accurate, that these troops are just there in a training role or are they in some way directly involved in the conflict? And if they are likely to be involved in a hands on way , maybe their own variety of Special Ops ,what will be the result of one or more of them becoming a casualty of the war? Would we be likely to hear about it even? Perhaps this would have been better in the "speculation" thread come to think of it.But I did wonder.

Kebabking answered this a few pages back:

Broadly - and hypothetically, of course - the kind of things you'd be doing would be sending independent reporting back to your government (Ukraine is the UK's friend, but they are interested in their best interests, not ours...), liaison for stuff like intelligence gathering, help with analysis from intelligence gathering, and help with training for technical stuff like Ground Target Designators.

Beware of reading too much into it though - 'Special Forces in Ukraine' might simply mean the protection teams at the embassy.

 

[Riklet]

there was no revolutionary change from 2010 onwards. Nothing of the kind. It was still an oligarchical state dependent upon one of two power blocs and was thoroughly riddled with corruption. Something that didn't change under Zelensky.

I think thats a simplistic understanding of social change personally. No it wasnt a left revolution but it did change Ukraine and for sure it had a significant impact on society and politics and now 8 years later quite likely on corruption too. As the old saying goes... it's too soon to say.

This is an interesting article with a left participant of Maidan in 2014 may be of interest.

Also. A key point is that it is Russia that took things further than the 2014 meddling. Their invasion in 2022 has only cemented Ukranian nationalism and reduced working class solidarity between the two countries. Millions of Ukranians who are biingual have stopped using Russian entirely. Their children will never learn the language. While we can argue all we want about fascists and the west meddling and corruption in the end Russia launched a full blown violent invasion of a peaceful neighbouring country, massively affecting the lives of millions of innocent people. Some people seem to forget this.

 

[Duncan2]

Kebabking answered this a few pages back:

i see,thanks, not in harms way by the sound of it in so far as anywhere in that part of the world can accurately be so described.

 

[The39thStep]

I think thats a simplistic understanding of social change personally. No it wasnt a left revolution but it did change Ukraine and for sure it had a significant impact on society and politics and now 8 years later quite likely on corruption too. As the old saying goes... it's too soon to say.

This is an interesting article with a left participant of Maidan in 2014 may be of interest.

Also. A key point is that it is Russia that took things further than the 2014 meddling. Their invasion in 2022 has only cemented Ukranian nationalism and reduced working class solidarity between the two countries. Millions of Ukranians who are biingual have stopped using Russian entirely. Their children will never learn the language. While we can argue all we want about fascists and the west meddling and corruption in the end Russia launched a full blown violent invasion of a peaceful neighbouring country, massively affecting the lives of millions of innocent people. Some people seem to forget this.

I think you are absolutely right in that the invasion strengthened Ukranian nationalism but absolutely wrong in suggesting that posters on here forget that Russia invaded Ukraine . The critiques of both states ,Russia and Ukraine would apply if there had been no invasion.

 

[belboid]

I think thats a simplistic understanding of social change personally. No it wasnt a left revolution but it did change Ukraine and for sure it had a significant impact on society and politics and now 8 years later quite likely on corruption too. As the old saying goes... it's too soon to say.

This is an interesting article with a left participant of Maidan in 2014 may be of interest.

Also. A key point is that it is Russia that took things further than the 2014 meddling. Their invasion in 2022 has only cemented Ukranian nationalism and reduced working class solidarity between the two countries. Millions of Ukranians who are biingual have stopped using Russian entirely. Their children will never learn the language. While we can argue all we want about fascists and the west meddling and corruption in the end Russia launched a full blown violent invasion of a peaceful neighbouring country, massively affecting the lives of millions of innocent people. Some people seem to forget this.

2010 didn't change anything, tho. Even Maidan was about a switch between blocs, about which boss they'd have. It was fucking significant, of course, but didn't ultimately lead to anyone having any more freedoms (not to mention the truly appalling Deep & Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement demanded from the EU).

 

[Dogsauce]

I presume some of the recent corruption related sackings/prosecutions in Ukraine have been undertaken as part of a ‘clean up’ with future EU membership in mind. There’s been a lot of statements by people like Zelensky that their future path is down the European route, and likely a message has come in from EU saying ‘sort your house out if you want this proposal to be taken seriously’. Seemed to be a point a few months ago when these anti-corruption measures started becoming more prominent.

It does always seem a bit iffy pointing the finger at other corrupt nations when there’s no shortage here, just maybe a bit more opaque or done through ‘proper channels’ (e.g old school networks etc.). See all the covid related corruption of our current regime.

 

[Dogsauce]

i see,thanks, not in harms way by the sound of it in so far as anywhere in that part of the world can accurately be so described.

It’s been a bit of a talking point among American right wingers that the leaked documents showed that ‘they were being lied to’ and that there were US troops on the ground in Ukraine. Total was something like 29 people, a mix of embassy security and some that are there to verify that donated weapons are getting through to the right places and not being sold on the black market or something (in response to another accusation mostly from far right types).

 

[tim]

the more anti-corruption laws you have to pass, the more corruption's going on

The UK doesn't pass many anti-corruption laws, does it? That doesn't stop us having ng the most sordidly corrupt economy of the lot. Laundering doesn't make you clean.

Roberto Saviano: London is heart of global financial corruption

Speaking at the Hay festival, the anti-mafia journalist said British financial services made the UK the world’s most corrupt nation

www.theguardian.com

 

[two sheds]

It is a bit like "No Spitting" signs on the top deck of a bus, though.

 

[redsquirrel]

... I do think the struggle against invasion takes precedence for most citizens.

In terms of opinions or in terms of interests? If the former probably true, if the latter well then that is the crucial point you are arguing against the class struggle.

 

[Pickman's model]

The UK doesn't pass many anti-corruption laws, does it? That doesn't stop us having ng the most sordidly corrupt economy of the lot. Laundering doesn't make you clean.

Roberto Saviano: London is heart of global financial corruption

Speaking at the Hay festival, the anti-mafia journalist said British financial services made the UK the world’s most corrupt nation

www.theguardian.com

You don't think they can buy 643 mps despite being the heart of global corruption

 

[A380]

The UK doesn't pass many anti-corruption laws, does it? That doesn't stop us having ng the most sordidly corrupt economy of the lot. Laundering doesn't make you clean.

Roberto Saviano: London is heart of global financial corruption

Speaking at the Hay festival, the anti-mafia journalist said British financial services made the UK the world’s most corrupt nation

www.theguardian.com

You seriously think the UK is the 195th most corrupt country on the world? That's either hyperbole or you don't get out or read much....

Most of the rest of the world does see us as one of the biggest tax havens TBF, but have a look at how State aid actually works in ,most of the EU or the US...

 

[The39thStep]

Yes, 4 minute warning redux cast as flood notice.

Easy to disable under notifications.

 

[spitfire]

That man is denser than a neutron star.

Compulsive viewing though.

 

[A380]

Good to put a face to the TC name….

 

[The39thStep]

Good to put a face to the TC name….

Its not Brogdale btw

 

[two sheds]

Shame if he did turn the phone off and didn't get the alert that tells him a tsunami is coming right behind him.

 

[tim]

You seriously thing the UK is the 195th most corrupt country on the world? That's either hyperbole or you don't get out or read much....

Most of the rest of the world does see us as one of the biggest tax havens TBF, but have a look at how State aid actually works in ,most of the EU or the US...

The most corrupt not the 195th most corrupt.

HSBC was really sorry after the US authorities caught them laundering the money made by the Mexican Cartels thereby enabling El Chapo and Co. to go on murdering thousands.
HSBC 'sorry' for aiding Mexican drugs lords, rogue states and terrorists

They were even more sorry when a few years later it was noticed that they were laundering money from the sleazy Gupta family in South Africa

HSBC 'ignored money laundering warning' in South Africa scandal

Lord Hain says the bank should be investigated for "possible criminal complicity".

www.bbc.com

When Russians based in the UK where murdered in outlandish ways the British Government got jolly cross. However, they were less keen to investigate 14 more conventional if highly improbable "suicides" and "accidents" such as that of Berezovsky and that spook who supposedly zipped himself into a bag

Once Upon a Time in Londongrad review – a blazing fireball that could topple our democracy

This true-crime documentary looks at 14 London deaths that point the finger at Putin – and how our weak governance has led to a shady system that threatens the very rule of law

www.theguardian.com

We have lots of politicians having their hands greased or willing to have their hands greased from Jack Straw to Malcolm Rifkin and Barry Gardiner who thought his Chinese chum who gave him hundreds of thousands of pounds was just being nice.

We have whatever is currently causing the SNP to implode. We have the kickbacks which eased British Aerospace arms deals with the Saudis. The investigation of was stopped because of the damage it would cause to the British economy.

We have all the other arms deals to brutes arranged through London.

We have the love of so many current government members of the Rwandan Dictatorship that is so commited to slaughtering the people and stealing the mineral wealth of Rwanda.

We have BP and Shell and their rapacious extractions worldwide.

We have bone-saw happy Mohamed bin Salman buying up Newcastle United, and all the other cunts who've used Premiership ownership to buy respectability.

We have the "Rotten Boroughs" and "In the Back" columns in private eye to keep us up to date with all the lesser examples of UK sleaze.

We have moats and Duck Houses.

I could say more but am off to the theatre.

 

[keybored]

That man is denser than a neutron star.

Either that or the greatest troll in recent times.

 

[A380]

The most corrupt not the 195th most corrupt.

HSBC was really sorry after the US authorities caught them laundering the money made by the Mexican Cartels thereby enabling El Chapo and Co. to go on murdering thousands.
HSBC 'sorry' for aiding Mexican drugs lords, rogue states and terrorists

They were even more sorry when a few years later it was noticed that they were laundering money from the sleazy Gupta family in South Africa

HSBC 'ignored money laundering warning' in South Africa scandal

Lord Hain says the bank should be investigated for "possible criminal complicity".

www.bbc.com

When Russians based in the UK where murdered in outlandish ways the British Government got jolly cross. However, they were less keen to investigate 14 more conventional if highly improbable "suicides" and "accidents" such as that of Berezovsky and that spook who supposedly zipped himself into a bag

Once Upon a Time in Londongrad review – a blazing fireball that could topple our democracy

This true-crime documentary looks at 14 London deaths that point the finger at Putin – and how our weak governance has led to a shady system that threatens the very rule of law

www.theguardian.com

We have lots of politicians having their hands greased or willing to have their hands greased from Jack Straw to Malcolm Rifkin and Barry Gardiner who thought his Chinese chum who gave him hundreds of thousands of pounds was just being nice.

We have whatever is currently causing the SNP to implode. We have the kickbacks which eased British Aerospace arms deals with the Saudis. The investigation of was stopped because of the damage it would cause to the British economy.

We have all the other arms deals to brutes arranged through London.

We have the love of so many current government members of the Rwandan Dictatorship that is so commited to slaughtering the people and stealing the mineral wealth of Rwanda.

We have BP and Shell and their rapacious extractions worldwide.

We have bone-saw happy Mohamed bin Salman buying up Newcastle United, and all the other cunts who've used Premiership ownership to buy respectability.

We have the "Rotten Boroughs" and "In the Back" columns in private eye to keep us up to date with all the lesser examples of UK sleaze.

We have moats and Duck Houses.

I could say more but am off to the theatre.

Far be it from me to defend the levels of corruption in the establishment here. But this is the kind of hyperbole bollocks that gets the rest of your arguments ignored as equally bollocks, and probably a bit UK centric .

 

[tim]

Far be it from me to defend the levels of corruption in the establishment here. But this is the kind of hyperbole bollocks that gets the rest of your arguments ignored as equally bollocks, and probably a bit UK centric .

Far be it from you to dismiss something rotten in the State of Britain.

 

[CNT36]

Far be it from me to defend the levels of corruption in the establishment here. But this is the kind of hyperbole bollocks that gets the rest of your arguments ignored as equally bollocks, and probably a bit UK centric .

It's hard to write something about UK corruption without it being at least a little UK centric.

 

[existentialist]

I see the updates on the war in Ukraine are coming in thick and fast.

 

[DownwardDog]

I see the updates on the war in Ukraine are coming in thick and fast.

Just in... The Russians are about to run out of ammunition for the fifteenth time. It'll all be over by Christmas.

 

[A380]

Far be it from you to dismiss something rotten in the State of Britain.

Very far. I’m well aware of the failings and corruption in the British state. But I’m also capable of GCSE levels of analysis….

 

[kabbes]

There are numerous taxonomies of “corruption” — it’s not just one thing. On some dimensions, the UK is not at all corrupt. For example, good luck trying to pay a bribe to law enforcement and government officials to speed up your paperwork. It also has transparency in various institutional practices. But on the dimensions related to institutional power allowing corporations to do things (quite legally) against the interests of the general population, the UK is right up there.

 

[A380]

It's hard to write something about UK corruption without it being at least a little UK centric.

This isn’t a thread about the United Kingdom. The clue’s in the name and the international ‘Ukraine ‘ sub forum….

 

[kebabking]

I see the updates on the war in Ukraine are coming in thick and fast.

OTOH, we have discovered something that's at least as solid as DU, which we can use to blow up Russian tanks, without upsetting the Russians with the name - so, you know, win.

 

[existentialist]

OTOH, we have discovered something that's at least as solid as DU, which we can use to blow up Russian tanks, without upsetting the Russians with the name - so, you know, win.

I have concerns about calibre...

 

[kebabking]

I have concerns about calibre...

He'd go down a 120 no drama - if you used enough propellant.