Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Chz]

Referendums are only allowed when the ruling government expects to win them.

That Cameron called the brexit one tells you more about his hubris than anything else.

True in the United Kingdom, not universally true. I mentioned Switzerland for good reason. The government introduced referenda on allowing women the vote a few times and the populace (men only, of course) only approved of it in 1971! Direct democracy is no panacea.

 

[Riklet]

Yes that’s covered in former Soviet territories part of my post.

Putin wants another Belarus in Ukraine and used to have it. The Ukrainians have cut that off and are realliging slowly towards the west. Everything from Russia since then is about trying to put Putins oligarchs back in charge of it.

This is very true and also why a supposed "class analysis" we see from those posters who are less keen on supporting Ukraine (I won't say pro Russia because that's both unfair and untrue) is really quite sorely lacking.

In focusing in on NATO expansion and the provocation of the Ukranians they let it slip even more. Where is the class analysis here? where is the mention of revolutionary change in Ukraine in 2010 onwards and the impact this had on the Russian oligarchs and ruling class. The origins of the war lie here and yet the analysis remains so stilted and backwards.

 

[Artaxerxes]

True in the United Kingdom, not universally true. I mentioned Switzerland for good reason. The government introduced referenda on allowing women the vote a few times and the populace (men only, of course) only approved of it in 1971! Direct democracy is no panacea.

It's much like the AV ref, Cameron was happy to do it because he knew it would lose not win.

 

[Rob Ray]

If your view is fringe enough, you have to vote for fringe parties - that is how the system works!

It doesn't work, though, because voting for a fringe party does not result in anything happening.

 

[belboid]

where is the mention of revolutionary change in Ukraine in 2010 onwards

there was no revolutionary change from 2010 onwards. Nothing of the kind. It was still an oligarchical state dependent upon one of two power blocs and was thoroughly riddled with corruption. Something that didn't change under Zelensky.

 

[Rob Ray]

Corruption was so messy in Ukraine that even after Crimea's annexation and the increasing drawing of lines that was going on it was regularly cited as the worst in Europe. Exactly how that's panned out since the war began is going to be damn near impossible to say while it's still going on, but loads of people have been booted during the war itself including from quite high office – the chatter about Russia's corruption being its greatest weakness generally ignores that it's rampant on both sides.

 

[Raheem]

Corruption was so messy in Ukraine that even after Crimea's annexation and the increasing drawing of lines that was going on it was regularly cited as the worst in Europe. Exactly how that's panned out since the war began is going to be damn near impossible to say while it's still going on, but loads of people have been booted during the war itself including from quite high office – the chatter about Russia's corruption being its greatest weakness generally ignores that it's rampant on both sides.

I think there is, though, a difference in attitudes to corruption between Russian and Ukrainian society.

 

[editor]

And now it's hard to find anybody with a word against him, though I'm sure the FSB are trying their best

And if anyone does have a bad word to say about him they're thrown in jail for a quarter of a century and their defence lawyers have to flee the country.

Russian lawyer for jailed opposition activist Kara-Murza flees

Vadim Prokhorov says he left before the end of his client's trial after a warning from a prosecutor.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[maomao]

I think there is, though, a difference in attitudes to corruption between Russian and Ukrainian society.

What are you basing that on?

 

[Artaxerxes]

I think there is, though, a difference in attitudes to corruption between Russian and Ukrainian society.

That there was corruption is undeniable as is that there is still corruption but the attempts to drive this out are ongoing and at the heart of many of the people who marched in the revolution’s motivations.

Corruption is a hydra and takes a fucking age to eradicate and as our own dear leaders show doing so is an eternal battle.

But in the corruption stakes Russia has Ukraine beat hands down which is why half of its kit fell apart in the first weeks of the invasion

 

[Rob Ray]

Tbf Ukraine also had less equipment to rob in the first place, and famously most of its armour now is nicked from the functional bits of Russia's forces or hand-me-down Western kit. I'd guess corruption has declined markedly on both sides in the last year and likely moreso in Ukraine - it becomes a much more pressing issue when your own neck is on the line.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Tbf Ukraine also had less equipment to rob in the first place, and famously most of its armour now is nicked from the functional bits of Russia's forces or hand-me-down Western kit.

Not just armour. The contrast between the basic infantry kit and medicine of the Ukrainian army and the Russian army was very noticeable

 

[belboid]

That there was corruption is undeniable as is that there is still corruption but the attempts to drive this out are ongoing and at the heart of many of the people who marched in the revolution’s motivations.

which 'revolution' was this? Because while many demonstrators were undoubtedly staunchly anti-corruption, they kept electing leaders who were well up for it. And while Zelensky was, no doubt, genuinely trying to do away with the worst of it, he had failed miserably. The bread basket case of Europe.

 

[Raheem]

What are you basing that on?

Mainly the prominence of "anti-corruption" as a successful electoral platform in Ukrainian national and local politics (prior to the current war, obvs).

It doesn't necessarily tell us whether Ukraine is becoming more or less corrupt, but that tackling it is a public aspiration in a way that doesn't really apply to Russia.

 

[maomao]

It's difficult to root corruption out of an oligarchy (which both Russia and Ukraine are) because the whole basis of society is corrupt.

 

[maomao]

Mainly the prominence of "anti-corruption" as a successful electoral platform in Ukrainian national and local politics (prior to the current war, obvs).

Drain the swamp eh?

 

[The39thStep]

there was no revolutionary change from 2010 onwards. Nothing of the kind. It was still an oligarchical state dependent upon one of two power blocs and was thoroughly riddled with corruption. Something that didn't change under Zelensky.

I must try and find this article that I read that was quite good categorising the aims and achievements of these ‘revolutions’ in the post soviet space .

 

[Raheem]

Drain the swamp eh?

Idk, but are you saying there's no swamp?

 

[maomao]

Idk, but are you saying there's no swamp?

No, I was drawing a parallel to Trump who promised to end corruption but Putin himself might have been a better example. He's passed several anti corruption laws and was originally seen as the candidate who could control the oligarchs.

 

[belboid]

Mainly the prominence of "anti-corruption" as a successful electoral platform in Ukrainian national and local politics (prior to the current war, obvs).

A platform put forward by candidates who then frequently turned out to be, uhhh, massively corrupt.

 

[Raheem]

A platform put forward by candidates who then frequently turned out to be, uhhh, massively corrupt.

Welcome to the world.

 

[Pickman's model]

No, I was drawing a parallel to Trump who promised to end corruption but Putin himself might have been a better example. He's passed several anti corruption laws and was originally seen as the candidate who could control the oligarchs.

the more anti-corruption laws you have to pass, the more corruption's going on

 

[Pickman's model]

No, I was drawing a parallel to Trump who promised to end corruption but Putin himself might have been a better example. He's passed several anti corruption laws and was originally seen as the candidate who could control the oligarchs.

now he is seen as the man who can kill the oligarchs

 

[belboid]

Welcome to the world.

you realise that that makes your original point completely irrelevant and/or just plain nonsense?

 

[Raheem]

you realise that that makes your original point completely irrelevant and/or just plain nonsense?

Not even slightly. My point was that corruption is unpopular within Ukraine. It's not news that something being unpopular doesn't automatically make it go away.

 

[belboid]

Not even slightly. My point was that corruption is unpopular within Ukraine. It's not news that something being unpopular doesn't automatically make it go away.

Naah, if they are voting for people who they have a pretty good idea are going to be corrupt despite standing on an anti-corruption platform, then that vote means nothing.

 

[The39thStep]

What are you basing that on?

Genetics

 

[Raheem]

Naah, if they are voting for people who they have a pretty good idea are going to be corrupt despite standing on an anti-corruption platform, then that vote means nothing.

That they have this pretty good idea is an enormous assumption, and I don't think it corresponds to reality. Even if it is objectively obvious (is it? How closely have you followed local Ukrainian politics), we don't need to look far to see that electoral promises being transparently bogus is not a total bar to people voting for them with sincerity.

 

[belboid]

That they have this pretty good idea is an enormous assumption, and I don't think it corresponds to reality. Even if it is objectively obvious (is it? How closely have you followed local Ukrainian politics), we don't need to look far to see that electoral promises being transparently bogus is not a total bar to people voting for them with sincerity.

I'm just going on your 'Welcome to the world.' I see no reason to believe Ukrainians who have actually lived under the Ukrainian state would be any less cynical than we are (and certainly not when compared with Russians).

 

[Duncan2]

According to the Washington Correspondent for Channel Four speaking a few days ago in the aftermath of the leak of US Intelligence documents there are,from UK alone, anything up to fifty Special Forces Units currently on the ground in Ukraine.Is it likely ,assuming this is about accurate, that these troops are just there in a training role or are they in some way directly involved in the conflict? And if they are likely to be involved in a hands on way , maybe their own variety of Special Ops ,what will be the result of one or more of them becoming a casualty of the war? Would we be likely to hear about it even? Perhaps this would have been better in the "speculation" thread come to think of it.But I did wonder.