Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Aladdin]

what is 'Western life as we know it' ? When did it begin?

In Ireland it probably really only started when it was officially declared a republic in 1949.
It will be different for different countries especially those that were part of various Empires.
You might be able to tell me when the United Kingdom became more democracy/ less kingdom? I suspect it was late in Victoria's reign? But I'm not that well up on UK history. Maybe later?
A lot of Europe was under an empire..same with the US. Albeit the US had a form of democracy in the late 17th century in the New England Colonies. But no democratoc rights for Native Americans and slaves at that time.
France is the outlier with a very early birth of democracy... 1792

 

[Pickman's model]

I agree with the bulk of your post, but I'm not convinced by the quoted bit.

The US and Ukraine have had a Strategic Partnership since 2008. Obviously it was a bit dated after the to-do over Donbass and Crimea in 2014, and the 2022 Statement on the Strategic Partnership was a lot stronger on Russia and Ukrainian territorial integrity. But there's a bit of chicken and egg about whether it was a cause of the invasion or a response to a Russian build up on the border with Ukraine.

The Statement is dated 1/09/22. According to this timeline about the run up to the invasion the first US side eye at Russia's intentions in Ukraine was in April 22, although they weren't taken seriously at first and it was hoped the US-Russia summit in Genneva on 16/06/22 would've calmed things down. That was followed by Putin ramping up his rhetoric on Ukraine and growing concern by US intelligence agencies over the summer.

So the 2022 Statement on the Strategic Partnership was agreed against growing concern that Russia was planning to invade Ukraine. By the time it was released in September the US seems to have thought it likely, and by the time the Charter was published in November the US seems to have been convinced that the invasion was in preparation.

Was it a US attempt to warn off Russia that failed or went wrong? Did Russia, at an early stage, see the reopening of discussions around the US-Ukraine Strategic Partnership as a reason to invade Ukraine, even after Putin had been going on about the historical unity of Russians and Ukrainians at least since 2021? Or was it just part of the ballet of international doings in build up to the invasion that has no real bearing on whether the invasion happened or not?

the statement is dated 1 september 2021. the russians invaded ukraine in february 2022.

 

[Spandex]

the statement is dated 1 september 2021. the russians invaded ukraine in february 2022.

I'm getting completely confused about what year it is

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm getting completely confused about what year it is

you've been reading spymaster's 'chronology: an arithmetical approach' (cambridge: cambridge university press, 2019) i think

 

[The39thStep]

In Ireland it probably really only started when it was officially declared a republic in 1949.
It will be different for different countries especially those that were part of various Empires.
You might be able to tell me when the United Kingdom became more democracy/ less kingdom? I suspect it was late in Victoria's reign? But I'm not that well up on UK history. Maybe later?
A lot of Europe was under an empire..same with the US. Albeit the US had a form of democracy in the late 17th century in the New England Colonies. But no democratoc rights for Native Americans and slaves at that time.
France is the outlier with a very early birth of democracy... 1792

So you are saying Western life as we know it is based on having some degree of democracy?

 

[A380]

what is 'Western life as we know it' ? When did it begin?

Stetsons , cacti, six guns, horses with no name , that kind of stuff.

 

[Dystopiary]

“We shouldn’t support Ukraine because Iraq happened” has been a staple of the #bothsides #warisbad #justaskingquestions side since the war broke out and indeed before it.

Amazingly you can both decry US imperialism and hope that Ukraine is able to fight off the state with a track record of murdering people by the bucket load and deploying nerve agents on civilian targets

Yeah, I don't get this selective anti-imperialism.

 

[Chz]

I'm getting completely confused about what year it is

I don't know what day it is, and then I come in here and try to debate coherently!

 

[The39thStep]

Stetsons , cacti, six guns, horses with no name , that kind of stuff.

Move 'em on, head 'em up
Head 'em up, move 'em on

 

[Dystopiary]

Why is Russia so massive, the biggest official country in the world?
Why did millions of people suddenly start speaking Russian*, and then other people, and then others?
Why did also millions of people move hundreds, sometimes thousands of miles away, which can so often be shown to be based on their ethnicity (eg, Crimean Tartar)?
Why did so many people who spoke out about this die young?

Imperialism.

Whether it's England, Britain, the USA, Russia or wherever, imperialism should be opposed - I don't understand why this is an issue. Fuck the oppressive Russian ruling classes and their genocidal project of assimilation or death. They won't stop with Ukraine.

*Endangered languages in Russia - scroll down to see full list. (Note this doesn't include what are now extinct languages in what is now Russia.)
Many people continue to be persecuted for speaking their own language in the imperialist project that is Russia.

But you know, "communism," lol.

 

[TopCat]

I was casting my mind back to the Falklands “conflict” back in the early eighties. What struck me then particularly was how the propaganda of the time so ensnared a big proportion of the UK population into supporting “our boys”.

Do many of you pro war lot recollect (if you are old enough) whether you supported the British forces in fighting the Argentinians to reclaim the islands?

 

[TopCat]

He’s already explained he uses logic to judge and watches both RT and BBC to get the truth rather than buying the propaganda the rest of us do.

Whereas you just make up bullshit quotes in the absence of anything much to say.

 

[The39thStep]

I was casting my mind back to the Falklands “conflict” back in the early eighties. What struck me then particularly was how the propaganda of the time so ensnared a big proportion of the UK population into supporting “our boys”.

Do many of you pro war lot recollect (if you are old enough) whether you supported the British forces in fighting the Argentinians to reclaim the islands?

I remember being part of a group that set fire to some Young Tory's Union Jack when they turned up at some demo in Hyde Park

 

[TopCat]

I remember being part of a group that set fire to some Young Tory's Union Jack when they turned up at some demo in Hyde Park

Top work.

 

[The39thStep]

Top work.

Thinking back another poster's brother was with us when that happened tonysingh

 

[Pickman's model]

I remember being part of a group that set fire to some Young Tory's Union Jack when they turned up at some demo in Hyde Park

why did you stop there?

 

[Pickman's model]

I was casting my mind back to the Falklands “conflict” back in the early eighties. What struck me then particularly was how the propaganda of the time so ensnared a big proportion of the UK population into supporting “our boys”.

Do many of you pro war lot recollect (if you are old enough) whether you supported the British forces in fighting the Argentinians to reclaim the islands?

back in the days where they'd solemnly read out a communique on the news. these days the propaganda is rather improved.

 

[TopCat]

back in the days where they'd solemnly read out a communique on the news. these days the propaganda is rather improved.

The propaganda never seemed to get everyone though. There was a lot of dissent and questioning amongst anarchists and the more rad left.

 

[Yossarian]

I think the more "pro war" position is allowing Putin to reap benefits from his war of conquest and let his forces regain strength for the next offensive, tbh.

Can't remember any strong feelings either way on the Falklands war at the time, it was all over before my 9th birthday

 

[TopCat]

I think the more "pro war" position is allowing Putin to reap benefits from his war of conquest and let his forces regain strength for the next offensive, tbh.

Can't remember any strong feelings either way on the Falklands war at the time, it was all over before my 9th birthday

Well it’s pro war to advocate no negotiation until more weapons have been sent in and more war fought.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I was casting my mind back to the Falklands “conflict” back in the early eighties. What struck me then particularly was how the propaganda of the time so ensnared a big proportion of the UK population into supporting “our boys”.

Do many of you pro war lot recollect (if you are old enough) whether you supported the British forces in fighting the Argentinians to reclaim the islands?

What does the Falklands have to do with Ukraine?

Apart from both being illegally invaded by countries run by extremely unpleasant dictators, that funny enough the people living there didn't want to live under.

 

[two sheds]

Well it’s pro war to advocate no negotiation until more weapons have been sent in and more war fought.

Agreed, but how do you check the Russians are doing it, too?

 

[maomao]

I was casting my mind back to the Falklands “conflict” back in the early eighties. What struck me then particularly was how the propaganda of the time so ensnared a big proportion of the UK population into supporting “our boys”.

Do many of you pro war lot recollect (if you are old enough) whether you supported the British forces in fighting the Argentinians to reclaim the islands?

My mum and dad (trots) told me that we supported Argentina so I went to school (I was in Y5) and told everyone I was on Argetina's side which caused me problems. I reckon my dad was taking the piss but they definitely weren't in favour of the war.

 

[LDC]

I was casting my mind back to the Falklands “conflict” back in the early eighties. What struck me then particularly was how the propaganda of the time so ensnared a big proportion of the UK population into supporting “our boys”.

Do many of you pro war lot recollect (if you are old enough) whether you supported the British forces in fighting the Argentinians to reclaim the islands?

I was too young.

Would you have supported arms to the forces fighting Franco, or support for the SDF fighting IS, or the French forces resisting nazi invasion, or etc etc.? I genuinely don't get your position. You say there should be negotiations instead, but Russia shows no inclination to do that now. You might as well say, "Well we should have a revolution instead of the war." I mean yes, but it's delusional to think that has anything to offer people at all here and now.

I guess you do support resistance to the Russia regime and the war within Russia itself though? Even if that's supported by another State in some way? Or only if it's 100% not supported by any State? And if you support it in Russia, then the moment it crosses the border into Ukraine then it's not OK?

I had a conversation with someone like you the other day and they painted themselves into a corner where they thought no left wing or extra-parliamentary support should go to Ukraine incase it ended up being used to support the war. Like no medical aid that might help injured service people, no food that might end up sustaining people resisting. They thought the only help should be NGOs and State's where they could 100% guarantee it might not help anything to do with the war. None of that union or self-organised stuff at all. Absolutely bonkers.

I mean at least a pacifist position is consistent.

 

[The39thStep]

My mum and dad (trots) told me that we supported Argentina so I went to school (I was in Y5) and told everyone I was on Argetina's side which caused me problems. I reckon my dad was taking the piss but they definitely weren't in favour of the war.

They were in SWP weren't they? I'm sure you once said that every year you went to the Easter Skegness Rally

 

[maomao]

They were in SWP weren't they? I'm sure you once said that every year you went to the Easter Skegness Rally

Yep. They used to constantly moan like fuck about the central committee though so may not have taken the party li e on everything.

 

[belboid]

It was wanting a UK defeat rather than an Argie win, although there was obviously only one way the UK were going to lose. British ownership of the islands being rather, well, farcical.

 

[The39thStep]

Yep. They used to constantly moan like fuck about the central committee though so may not have taken the party li e on everything.

Democratic Centralism is the organised mistrust of the party

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

How does that fit in with the idea NATO was formed in 1949 to stop Russian aggression?

Never said it was.

 

[The39thStep]

It was wanting a UK defeat rather than an Argie win, although there was obviously only one way the UK were going to lose. British ownership of the islands being rather, well, farcical.

Yes , it was the RCP and RCG who had the victory to Malvinas line wasn't it. ?
Socialist Organiser I think wanted 'self determination for the Falklands ?
Militant were stop the war ?