Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

Kevbad the Bad said:
Sorry if you find me tedious. I'm not justifying anything that the Russian state in its varying forms has done. All imperialisms are crap. All i'm saying is that post WW2 Russia's sphere of influence on European territory did not expand and there was no serious attempt to make it do so. If anything it began to contract. But they wanted the new status quo (I was never a fan myself) and Putin wants it back.
Click to expand...

not you personally tedious. Just this whataboutery. I like that though, the USSR didn't have an expansionist policy... Once and after it had expanded... But anyways I'm just catching up with thread.
 
There were clearly elements in the US who wanted a fight. And there was clearly a failure by western politicians to pursue genuine peace in favour of cashing in on arms sales. None of those things 'made' Russia invade Ukraine but it suited western leaders to have a threat that they could sell weapons to defend against.
 
Isn't there an element of truth in NATO expanding up to Russia's borders, though? Certainly from Russia's point of view. I saw a map one time showing the American nuclear weapons in countries surrounding Russia and there were quite a few of them. Something Chomsky's remarked upon, too as I recall.
 
two sheds said:
Isn't there an element of truth in NATO expanding up to Russia's borders, though? Certainly from Russia's point of view. I saw a map one time showing the American nuclear weapons in countries surrounding Russia and there were quite a few of them. Something Chomsky's remarked upon, too as I recall.
Click to expand...
There are no US nuclear weapons in any country bordering Russia.

D4B8F0A9-56B0-407E-9CF4-0FBF84649C7C.png

www.cfr.org

Nuclear Weapons in Europe: Mapping U.S. and Russian Deployments

Russia’s threat to deploy tactical nuclear weapons in Belarus has raised the specter of a new nuclear standoff with the United States and its allies in Europe. It also draws new attention to how such…
www.cfr.org www.cfr.org
 
Does the world really need the nuclear missiles of Russia and NATO pointing directly at each other across the border fence.

Guess we will find out
 
two sheds said:
Isn't there an element of truth in NATO expanding up to Russia's borders, though? Certainly from Russia's point of view. I saw a map one time showing the American nuclear weapons in countries surrounding Russia and there were quite a few of them. Something Chomsky's remarked upon, too as I recall.
Click to expand...

I don't think that is correct, I can't find any maps or websites on google showing that to be the case, indeed the opposite.

Here's a list of countries hosting US nukes.

1a.png

WIKI
 
xenon said:
Nato boarders eh.

if Ukraine had have been in Nato or had their own nuclear deterrant, I wonder if Putin would have launched his special children murdering operation.
Click to expand...

Russia's probably ensured that no other country will give up its nuclear weapons - Ukraine was briefly the third-largest nuclear power in the world but it agreed to give them up in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum

The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine
 
xenon said:
Nato boarders eh.

if Ukraine had have been in Nato or had their own nuclear deterrant, I wonder if Putin would have launched his special children murdering operation.
Click to expand...
Child murdering if honest think that's the usual horrendous collatoral damage you get in war. It the stories of child resettlement I'm finding more alarming
 
two sheds said:
Isn't there an element of truth in NATO expanding up to Russia's borders, though? Certainly from Russia's point of view. I saw a map one time showing the American nuclear weapons in countries surrounding Russia and there were quite a few of them. Something Chomsky's remarked upon, too as I recall.
Click to expand...
Of course there's an element of truth to it. The refusal to accept this fact is just bizarre. It doesn't excuse in any way the Russian invasion, but we shouldn't pretend it never happened or that it wasn't one (of many) factors in causing the invasion. It's generally accepted that WW2 was caused, partly, by excessive war reparations from WW1, but acknowledging that fact doesn't mean anyone thinks it was okay Hitler annexed Austria (or anywhere else). It's grossly simplistic politics to just go 'Russia bad' and stop there.
 
belboid said:
Of course there's an element of truth to it. The refusal to accept this fact is just bizarre. It doesn't excuse in any way the Russian invasion, but we shouldn't pretend it never happened or that it wasn't one (of many) factors in causing the invasion. It's generally accepted that WW2 was caused, partly, by excessive war reparations from WW1, but acknowledging that fact doesn't mean anyone thinks it was okay Hitler annexed Austria (or anywhere else). It's grossly simplistic politics to just go 'Russia bad' and stop there.
Click to expand...

One problem that I see is the blurring and mixing up of what is being talked about.

Simplistically I mean are we talking about the context and history of what lead up to the war, and if so then discussing anything like that (as fact or theory or speculation) is of course fair enough. What often happens in discussions about what is actually happening now, the war as it is and what might unfold on the ground is that there's a tendency for some people to bring issues like the one you mention above in, often repeatedly, which really does come across as borderline excusing the invasion sometimes. And of course that's on the background of the Russian State and its fellow travellers doing exactly the same.

Fair enough...

1) "Why did this war happen?" "NATO expansion...".

But often...

2) "Horrendous Russian war crimes." "NATO expansion".
 
Last edited:
two sheds said:
Isn't there an element of truth in NATO expanding up to Russia's borders, though? Certainly from Russia's point of view. I saw a map one time showing the American nuclear weapons in countries surrounding Russia and there were quite a few of them. Something Chomsky's remarked upon, too as I recall.
Click to expand...
cupid_stunt said:
I don't think that is correct, I can't find any maps or websites on google showing that to be the case, indeed the opposite.

Here's a list of countries hosting US nukes.

View attachment 371419

WIKI
Click to expand...
yeh that's where they are (although various wiki articles differ on the number of warheads) but not where they have been.

2 things:
1) history of the custody and deployment of nuclear weapons july 1945 through september 1977 (345 page pdf) declassified and redacted history, which is drawn on for
2) where were they (bulletin of the atomic scientists article, 10 page pdf)

the bas article names britain, west germany, greece, italy, turkey, holland and belgium while an appendix from 1) lists deployments by country / state:
1681993442867.png
1681993497891.png
1681993540890.png
 
LDC said:
The problem that I see is the blurring and mixing up of what is being talked about.

Simplistically I mean are we talking about the context and history of what lead up to the war, and if so then discussing anything like that (as fact or theory or speculation) is of course fair enough. What often happens in discussions about what is actually happening now, the war as it is and what might unfold on the ground is that there's a tendency for some people to bring issues like the one you mention above in, often repeatedly, which really does come across as borderline excusing the invasion sometimes. And of course that's on the background of the Russian State and it's fellow travellers doing exactly the same.

Fair enough...

1) "Why did this war happen?" "NATO expansion...".

But often...

2) "Horrendous Russian war crimes." "NATO expansion".
Click to expand...
So ok to mention it but not often ?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

platinumsage
Ukraine and the Russian invasion, Feb 2022 - tangentially related crap
29 30 31 32 33
Replies
978
Views
52K
The39thStep
The39thStep
tim
The 2023 Russian Coup.
51 52 53 54 55
Replies
2K
Views
69K
_Russ_
_Russ_
Dogsauce
The Russian defenestration thread
2
Replies
51
Views
5K
maomao
maomao
platinumsage
Ukraine invasion memes and viral content
70 71 72 73 74
Replies
2K
Views
122K
The39thStep
The39thStep
Pickman's model
Ukraine after the war
2 3
Replies
62
Views
6K
phildwyer
phildwyer
Back
Top Bottom