Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Spymaster]

You can be against Russia and the invasion and still have criticism of NATO and the US without being a thinly veiled contrarian tankie though

It's being pro-Russia and criticising the US and NATO, that's the thinly-veiled, tankie giveaway.

 

[The39thStep]

You can but when your only contribution to the discussion is “wow America is ramping up this war” or “god Zelensky is escalating this he should just negotiate” or “look at what the Ukrainians are up to” without any comment on the many many Russian crimes or antics it starts to look a bit iffy

If we apply a 'for balance' criteria to posts on this thread most would fail tbh. Its the discussion that should draw the balance out.

 

[Pickman's model]

You can but when your only contribution to the discussion is “wow America is ramping up this war” or “god Zelensky is escalating this he should just negotiate” or “look at what the Ukrainians are up to” without any comment on the many many Russian crimes or antics it starts to look a bit iffy

we all know that war is politics carried out by other means, so at some point there will have to be a political solution to this. it may be like korea, where the two states remain technically at war, it may end in an actual peace treaty. but zelensky and indeed putin (or future heads of the ukrainian and russian states) will have to come to an accord.

 

[The39thStep]

It's being pro-Russia and criticising the US and NATO, that's the thinly-veiled, tankie giveaway.

I must have missed this , who are the pro Russian posters?

 

[Flavour]

I must have missed this , who are the pro Russian posters?

TopCat

 

[The39thStep]

TopCat

Perhaps we should ask the mods to put 'pro Russian account' for his tagline ?

 

[TopCat]

Don't reckon anyone here supports/ encourages this or any war, tbf.

You are obviously wrong. Lots here support the US etc and want them to win.

 

[Artaxerxes]

If we apply a 'for balance' criteria to posts on this thread most would fail tbh. It’s the discussion that should draw the balance out.

There’s no discussion, the discussion is always “wow if you support Ukraine you are a warmonger”

 

[TopCat]

There’s no discussion, the discussion is always “wow if you support Ukraine you are a warmonger”

Are you quoting the little voices in your head?

 

[LDC]

Meanwhile...

You are obviously wrong. Lots here support the US etc and want them to win.

Lol, you do know Ukraine was invaded not the US?

 

[krtek a houby]

You are obviously wrong. Lots here support the US etc and want them to win.

Names?

 

[TopCat]

Names?

Is this going to be like the benefits of Brexit?

 

[Aladdin]

Yeah well we don’t agree. I think it’s worse than dogshit for people who posed as being left wing for years getting behind the US, NATO and the EU in this conflict.

What should the world have done?

Sat back and let Putin take Ukraine, then the Baltic states, Finland, Poland, Czech republic? How far would you have let him go before thinking that maybe the EU might need to stop him?

Do you really believe Putin would have stopped at the border with Poland?

Who would you suggest could have supported the Ukraine in their fight?

The US has done some very dodgy shit...we know this. They are also the only other superpower prepared to "fight for democracy" even if that democracy is flawed and imperfect. It still beats the shit lives that many Russians lead unable to voice opinions or vote out a homidicidal maniacal leader.

 

[TopCat]

Meanwhile...


Lol, you do know Ukraine was invaded not the US?

It’s a proxy war. You know this.

 

[krtek a houby]

Is this going to be like the benefits of Brexit?

Is the US going to win that one as well?

 

[krtek a houby]

It’s a proxy war. You know this.

Did the US invade Ukraine?

 

[TopCat]

What should the world have done?

Sat back and let Putin take Ukraine, then the Baltic states, Finland, Poland, Czech republic? How far would you have let him go before thinking that maybe the EU might need to stop him?

Do you really believe Putin would have stopped at the border with Poland?

Who would you suggest could have supported the Ukraine in their fight?

The US has done some very dodgy shit...we know this. They are also the only other superpower prepared to "fight for democracy" even if that democracy is flawed and imperfect. It still beats the shit lives that many Russians lead unable to voice opinions or vote out a homidicidal maniacal leader.

Most of the world don’t support the US.

 

[TopCat]

Did the US invade Ukraine?

They expanded NATO up to Russian borders. They wanted a fight.

 

[krtek a houby]

They expanded NATO up to Russian borders. They wanted a fight.

Who invaded Ukraine?

 

[TopCat]

You can go back to discussing the invincibility of Challenger tanks now if you like.

 

[Artaxerxes]

“They invaded Ukraine because Ukraine wanted to join an alliance that was formed to stop Russian aggression”

So close, yet so far to epiphany

 

[krtek a houby]

You can go back to discussing the invincibility of Challenger tanks now if you like.

Wtf?

 

[TopCat]

“They invaded Ukraine because Ukraine wanted to join an alliance that was formed to stop Russian aggression”

So close, yet so far to epiphany

NATO was not formed for that reason. It was a project to project US hegemony.

 

[Artaxerxes]

NATO was not formed for that reason. It was a project to project US hegemony.

Project and protect from who?

 

[Flavour]

They expanded NATO up to Russian borders. They wanted a fight.

Poland joined NATO in 1999. The Baltic states in 2004. What other NATO expansion was there up to Russian borders in the run up to Russia's invasion of Ukraine?

Finland joined NATO as a result of this invasion, not as a cause.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Poland joined NATO in 1999. The Baltic states in 2004. What other NATO expansion was there up to Russian borders in the run up to Russia's invasion of Ukraine?

Finland joined NATO as a result of this invasion, not as a cause.

Russia has the right to continue to pillage and treat its subject states and former members of the Warsaw pact as much as it likes and anything else is western aggression especially if those state say they aren’t interested in it any more

 

[LDC]

It’s a proxy war. You know this.

I agree with plenty of left wing commentators that that doesn't explain what's going on completely at all.

And given there's no absolute and clear definition of what a proxy war is we could argue either way. But that doesn't negate what else is happening, unless you use proxy as a lazy comfort blanket to ignore the actual events and Ukraine's (and Poland's etc.) wishes and aims in all this. Not to mention Russia's, unless you think their 'security concerns' are legitimate and grounds for all this?

I mean I get it's a nice thing to throw about but it doesn't explain the complexities of the situation really, nor what people in Ukraine should actually have done or do.

 

[Rob Ray]

.

 

[Chz]

They expanded NATO up to Russian borders. They wanted a fight.

I like your wording that suggests NATO somehow infiltrated eastern European countries and forced them to join. Rather than that they were still terrified of Russia and desperate for some security.
I happen to think that it was a mistake to allow the Baltics into NATO, but that's because they're indefensible and not because they aren't democracies who wanted security.

 

[JimW]

Poland joined NATO in 1999. The Baltic states in 2004. What other NATO expansion was there up to Russian borders in the run up to Russia's invasion of Ukraine?

Finland joined NATO as a result of this invasion, not as a cause.

Russia's spiritual borders if the ungrateful fucks hadn't elected to self-determine.