The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
How does this apply to Ukraine ?
Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24
- Thread starter kebabking
- Start date
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yes in the second world war america backed the soviet union and now some decades later they're not backing russia.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
there's a pedant in you straining to get out
_Russ_
Never not Knowingly Misunderstood
Was In reply to your post on Americans backing Neo Nazi Ukrainians some decades after fighting Nazis
I.E., fighting percieved fascists then backing same
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
Or, a simple continuation: my enemy's enemy is my friend. While Adolf had been on his European Tour his enemy had been (for a time) Old Joe. Thus Old Joe become our friend. Once the band folded, and Old Joe was no longer the enemy of our enemy, his enemy became our friend.
A dangerous game of course, but one that sometimes proves useful, as long as you go into with your eyes open, and you remember that the enemy of your enemy is a tool of your own war, not an objective in itself.
WouldBe
Dislicksick
Not sure Americans backed Russia in Afghanistan either.
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
Not sure Americans backed Russia in Afghanistan either.
No, they backed what would become the Tailban.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Oh OK.
They were fighting fascists, rather than perceived fascists, although it was the fascists that declared war on them following the USA's declaration of war on Japan. There hadn't been too much enthusiasm from the USA about entering the war previously, I think that it was only by mid 1941 that there was a public majority for military intervention and that came with caveats. Of course, Pearl Harbour ended any debate.
The United States Counter Intelligence Corps were in contact with UPA members ( both Banderas group and the opposing faction within the Ukraine Nationalists) as early as 1945 using them to sniff out Soviet Union agents in the displacement camps in the American sector .
This book ( based on papers released under the Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act) is a fascinating read of the activities of the American State agencies and the Nazis in the post war years
gosub
~#
BBC News - Ukraine crash: Ministers killed as helicopter comes down near nursery
Ukraine crash: Ministers killed as helicopter comes down near nursery
Ukraine's interior minister, his deputy, and another official are among 18 killed in the crash.
www.bbc.co.uk
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Looks more like an accident than a shooting down.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
What makes you think it was the russians?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Oleksiy Arestovych, Zelenky's most prominent adviser resigned over an interview in which he claimed that the Ukrainian defense system had hit the Russian missile in Dnipro causing it to explode. Several Ukranina politicians have asked for the SBU ( Ukranian Secret Service) to arrest and interview him.
Puzzling figure this fella, originally a member of a far right organisation , shared a platform with Dugin, opposed the Orange Revolution and Ukraine joining the EU and NATO.
He has a following of 2m on YouTube, mainly speaks in Russian, and announced last year that he would run for President if Zelensky doesn't go for a second term.
Puzzling figure this fella, originally a member of a far right organisation , shared a platform with Dugin, opposed the Orange Revolution and Ukraine joining the EU and NATO.
He has a following of 2m on YouTube, mainly speaks in Russian, and announced last year that he would run for President if Zelensky doesn't go for a second term.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
It's reported by some that his claim was based on what a 'friend' said could be the case rather than by any investigation of the crash site. Another criticism is that his statement ( which a Rusian spokesperson said was plausible) feeds into Russian propaganda about Ukrainian defense systems hitting Russian missiles and causing damage etc. There was also the controversy about the missile wreckage that landed in a farm in Poland if you remember.
What is weird imo is that as someone who has had such a large input and reach into Ukrainian comms is that although he went 'off message' is that his resignation was accepted.
Dogsauce
I’ve got Skol but I’m not a Scholar
It’s not a propaganda line, there’s now actual footage of the missile striking the building. The type of missile used has an accuracy measured in the hundreds of metres, using this in a dense urban area was highly likely to cause an incident like this.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
The continuing propaganda line is that the missiles and drones cause the destruction not the shooting down of the same despite not being able to predict where an destroyed missile or drone will impact when destroyed by a SAM etc.
Cid
Proper break this time
Impressive mental gymnastics routine you've got going there TC.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Its pretty well known that Ukraine defence systems do complicate the picture and are implicated in various events. Its also well known that this is a sensitive subject and one that ends up being the subject of propaganda from both sides, often in the form of denials.
Because its sensitive and subject to highly emotive propaganda, its especially important not to make assumptions about any particular incident being a result of such factors unless certain facts that point in that direction actually emerge.
Because its sensitive and subject to highly emotive propaganda, its especially important not to make assumptions about any particular incident being a result of such factors unless certain facts that point in that direction actually emerge.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Though I don't think it's unfair to point out that, if Russia weren't firing missiles all over Ukraine, air defence collateral damage would not be an issue...
elbows
Well-Known Member
Indeed. And it would be unreasonable to expect Ukraine not to try to defeat the missiles, and there is no way to do wthat without risk. The propaganda involved is also an inevitable part of war.
This side of the war is likely to ramp up further since it was announced a while ago that Patriot missiles are to become part of the picture. I'm no expert on weapons systems so I wont start predicting quite how this might change the game, but I expect it will make some of the issues even more sensitive. Perhaps someone who knows about these things can comment on whether it will reduce certain collatoral damage risks, make no difference to that, or make such things even more likely.
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