Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[LDC]

Can you expand on this please?

Briefly; it paints the 'west' as a single monolithic block with the same interests. It negates (and minimises) the fracture lines along political differences in countries, States, and wider blocks that could be seen as the West (including the existence of people against the war). Totally ignores actual people and makes it all about States/corporations. It ignores the fact that most/all of these companies people mention are transnational rather than simply of 'the west'. Etc.

IMO it has it's root in a simplistic anti-imperialism that some bits of the Left still struggle/refuse to get over, and it has led some into politically dodgy terrain on a number of issues. I mean look at the Galloway thread as an example.

Leads many to: West=capitalism=bad / Not west=not (as) capitalism=good.
And in part leads a good load to conspiracy theories.

 

[Pickman's model]

Briefly; it paints the 'west' as a single monolithic block with the same interests. It negates (and minimises) the fracture lines along political differences in countries, States, and wider blocks that could be seen as the West (including the existence of people against the war). Totally ignores actual people and makes it all about States/corporations. It ignores the fact that most/all of these companies people mention are transnational rather than simply of 'the west'. Etc.

IMO it has it's root in a simplistic anti-imperialism that some bits of the Left still struggle/refuse to get over, and it has led some into politically dodgy terrain on a number of issues. I mean look at the Galloway thread as an example.

Leads many to: West=capitalism=bad / Not west=not (as) capitalism=good.
And in part leads a good load to conspiracy theories.

sure the west isn't a precise term but it does conjure up the countries that are in formal alliances, eg most of europe + the us + canada in nato, the european union and so on. i've always understood 'the west' to mean governments/states and not the actual inhabitants of countries - or corporations. it's just a shorthand imo, sometimes more useful than at others. i'd be interested to know what alternative/s you'd propose to capture the complexity you outline.

 

[LDC]

sure the west isn't a precise term but it does conjure up the countries that are in formal alliances, eg most of europe + the us + canada in nato, the european union and so on. i've always understood 'the west' to mean governments/states and not the actual inhabitants of countries - or corporations. it's just a shorthand imo, sometimes more useful than at others. i'd be interested to know what alternative/s you'd propose to capture the complexity you outline.

But within those groupings you mention there are tensions and disagreements on a whole host of issues rather than it being a monolithic 'west' aren't there?

Yeah, I get people use it as a shorthand, but that's not without dangers. I think lots of people on the Left use it very lazily, and mostly it needs clarification mostly unless someone is using it is someone whose politics you already know more about. But generally in discussion in places like this I think people should just expand on it more.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Yeah, there are a whole 22 counties in the world we haven't had a war with.

Fetch me my pencil sharpener, an atlas and a fresh pad of paper - we've got work to do

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah, I get people use it as a shorthand, but that's not without dangers. I think lots of people on the Left use it very lazily, and mostly it needs clarification mostly unless someone is using it is someone whose politics you already know more about. But generally in discussion in places like this I think people should just expand on it more.

ok, those countries which were coalitions of the willing in iraq and joined the counter-insurgency effort in afghanistan - plus the nations which promised money to rebuild that latter country - won't have a great deal of credibility left: being as ukraine is essentially a proxy war and when it's no longer in american / nato interests they'll be on their way. the 'liberalisation' of the ukraine economy will benefit 'western' companies probably far more than 'eastern' ones due to the way in which eg china is more oriented towards russia than ukraine. but the people it certainly won't benefit are the unfortunate inhabitants of ukraine, be that those under current russian administration or under zelensky's rule

 

[A380]

no, that's countries that the british empire never invaded. not that we haven't had a war with. eg you've forgotten the anglo-swedish war of 1810-1812

The Swedish forces handicapped in that one by having to assemble their weapons from flat packs first. Kaanon and Worshipe particularly.

 

[Pickman's model]

The Swedish forces handicapped in that one by having to assemble their weapons from flat packs first. Kaanon and Worshipe particularly.

They declared war tho presumably aware of their shortcomings

 

[DaveCinzano]

The Swedish forces handicapped in that one by having to assemble their weapons from flat packs first. Kaanon and Worshipe particularly.

One thing you can safely say about the Swedes is that no matter what they turnip on time

 

[JimW]

One thing you can safely say about the Swedes is that no matter what they turnip on time

Unfortunately, often mashed.

 

[maomao]

One thing you can safely say about the Swedes is that no matter what they turnip on time

A lot of posters will say you shouldn't turn a serious thread into a string of pointless root vegetable puns but sometimes you have to beetroot to yourself.

 

[DaveCinzano]

pointless root vegetable puns

Does not compute

 

[The39thStep]

Briefly; it paints the 'west' as a single monolithic block with the same interests. It negates (and minimises) the fracture lines along political differences in countries, States, and wider blocks that could be seen as the West (including the existence of people against the war). Totally ignores actual people and makes it all about States/corporations. It ignores the fact that most/all of these companies people mention are transnational rather than simply of 'the west'. Etc.

IMO it has it's root in a simplistic anti-imperialism that some bits of the Left still struggle/refuse to get over, and it has led some into politically dodgy terrain on a number of issues. I mean look at the Galloway thread as an example.

Leads many to: West=capitalism=bad / Not west=not (as) capitalism=good.
And in part leads a good load to conspiracy theories.

I think this is worthy of a longer discussion tbh .

I agree with the basic premise in your first point ie 'all that is solid melts into air'. However, whilst there may be tensions ie USA v EU and some states within the EU who have a larger dependency on say Russian oil/gas in the western capitalist block I'm struggling to identify actual fractures. The US is selling this as very much a west issue, mainly because it sees NATO as a west issue, with a subplot that it is at times trying to keep Europe on board.

Sure many of these companies are transnational and will have at times different levels of interest in different countries and no doubt with different partners however there was little resistance by such companies to either de-investing from Russia nor did they blatantly resist sanctions aginst Russia. There is a definite pitch from both the US, EU states and the UK that there are gold in them hills in Ukraine and Ukraine is framing its message to 'the west'

President Volodymyr Zelenskyy described the investment potential in his country as “the greatest opportunity in Europe since world war two”. Economic development minister Yulia Svyrydenko said Kyiv was also preparing to allow larger investors to operate in Ukraine under English commercial law to reassure western businesses concerned about widespread corruption in the country’s judicial system. “We are grateful to our western partners for international financial aid,” Svyrydenko said in an interview with the Financial Times. “But today we are not asking for humanitarian aid. We are asking for investment that can provide a growth opportunity for Ukraine. We understand it as blood for the Ukrainian economy.”

The use of the term 'the west' isn't confined to those who may use it as part of their 'simplistic anti-imperialism' even on these boards. You may have missed it but in fact, it was used for example in post 20193 , a couple of posts up from the one you initially responded to , presumably in the opposite content ie west =good. What would your response be to that post?

And I'm not too sure how effective your caricature of 'west = capitalism/not west = not ( as) capitalism' is tbh for most people . Isn't it possible say that Russia and China are undoubtedly capitalist whilst still describing the west as capitalist. ?

I think its perfectly possible to navigate the war through a 'neither Washington nor Moscow' type analysis of capitalism and imperialism without inevitably being drawn towards the sinkholes of Galloway type gumph or neo-con Cold War histrionics.

 

[The39thStep]

I like to think all our military operations were special.

Very busy people

 

[A380]

Very busy people

Seems a suspiciously low number.

 

[The39thStep]

Seems a suspiciously low number.

Doesn't include the 'were issued with the appropriate advice' ones

 

[weltweit]

Anyone also hear that Britain may send some Challenger tanks to Ukraine?

I would have thought the training might rule that out.

 

[Supine]

Anyone also hear that Britain may send some Challenger tanks to Ukraine?

I would have thought the training might rule that out.

It’s on the bbc

 

[kebabking]

Anyone also hear that Britain may send some Challenger tanks to Ukraine?

I would have thought the training might rule that out.

It's been announced by the PM and MOD.

The training isn't a real problem: it's a tank, it's got levers to make it turn, and a big gun you point at stuff.

The problems are going to be around logistics and support. Stuff like spares, recovery vehicles (boring stuff like the size of tow hitches), ammunition, fuel, the spanner for fixing tracks, and about a billion other things that aren't very exciting, but will stop an armoured advance quicker than you can say Javelin.

Also, bridges. Western main battle tanks are much heavier that Soviet/Russian MBT's, 20+ tons heavier...

Chally 2 holds the world record for a tank kill. 5km. You'll not find a Russian tank that can put accurately putrounds out to half that. The only chally that's ever been destroyed was by another Challenger in a friendly fire accident.

And it's got a kettle.

 

[DaveCinzano]

And it's got a kettle.

Is that like how H&K added a bottle opener to the SA80 in its upgrade?

 

[kebabking]

Is that like how H&K added a bottle opener to the SA80 in its upgrade?

Nah, designed on from ground up.

They only put the gun on once they'd got the important stuff sorted...

 

[Spymaster]

And it's got a kettle.

You mean some tanks haven’t?

 

[DaveCinzano]

You mean some tanks haven’t?

The Abrams probably has a microwave

 

[Pickman's model]

It's been announced by the PM and MOD.

The training isn't a real problem: it's a tank, it's got levers to make it turn, and a big gun you point at stuff.

The problems are going to be around logistics and support. Stuff like spares, recovery vehicles (boring stuff like the size of tow hitches), ammunition, fuel, the spanner for fixing tracks, and about a billion other things that aren't very exciting, but will stop an armoured advance quicker than you can say Javelin.

Also, bridges. Western main battle tanks are much heavier that Soviet/Russian MBT's, 20+ tons heavier...

Chally 2 holds the world record for a tank kill. 5km. You'll not find a Russian tank that can put accurately putrounds out to half that. The only chally that's ever been destroyed was by another Challenger in a friendly fire accident.

And it's got a kettle.

Russian tanks have samovars

 

[kebabking]

Russian tanks have samovars

Don't need, it, they've got anti-freeze in the engines...

 

[Pickman's model]

Don't need, it, they've got anti-freeze in the engines...

Austrian wine

 

[StoneRoad]

I didn't realise the chally's kill range was that far, must have taken some careful aiming ...

kettle ? surely that's the boiling vessel

 

[Supine]

So we’re sending them armoured transportable tea making facilities. How very British.

 

[kebabking]

So we’re sending them armoured transportable tea making facilities. How very British.

It's how wars are won.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Austrian wine

Laški Rizling

 

[Pickman's model]

Laški Rizling

toured with ruddy yurts, i believe, on the '88 'no sleep till midnight' tour of yugoslavia