Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[TopCat]

for me the better thing would be if nato had looked at things in the early 1990s and delivered the peace dividend we heard so much about then. in the absence of that responsible disbanding advancing to the east was in my view reckless. the notion advanced now is that the current situation shows how correct nato were to draw in the former warsaw pact countries. i think that's something of a teleological point of view, that for me where we are now was not inevitable and that some conflict was at the least made more likely by nato's expansion.

A decent view.

 

[mojo pixy]

that's bilge, you don't see the americans having their lack of legs pointed out do you? they've committed massive war crimes - bombing maternity hospitals, use of chemical weapons (dk how else you'd characterise eg agent orange), waging aggressive war - the #1 war crime etc etc etc.

On these boards at least there's about as much support for American war crimes as there is support for the Russian ones. I suspect that those most vocally opposed to US atrocities are most likely to chuck an "it's subjective" at the Russian ones. This more-antifascist-than-thou side-track is more about old battle lines as far as I can see, rather than anything to do with what's actually happening in Ukraine right now.

 

[Pickman's model]

On these boards at least there's about as much support for American war crimes as there is support for the Russian ones. I suspect that those most vocally opposed to US atrocities are most likely to chuck an "it's subjective" at the Russian ones. This more-antifascist-than-thou side-track is more about old battle lines as far as I can see, rather than anything to do with what's actually happening in Ukraine right now.

yeh i wasn't simply talking of these boards. the americans are having a whale of a time taking the russians to task for their war crimes while the us are getting a largely free ride on the international stage.

 

[mojo pixy]

yeh i wasn't simply talking of these boards. the americans are having a whale of a time taking the russians to task for their war crimes while the us are getting a largely free ride on the international stage.

Fair enough, but Urban 75 doesn't bear much responsibility for what happens on the international stage, we can only really blame each other for what we do here. And here, I don't recall anyone ever posting "it's subjective" about eg. war crimes, without being seriously taken to task over it. If it's even happened before.

 

[Pickman's model]

Fair enough, but Urban 75 doesn't bear much responsibility for what happens on the international stage, we can only really blame each other for what we do here. And here, I don't recall anyone ever posting "it's subjective" about eg. war crimes, without being seriously taken to task over it. If it's even happened before.

yeh. as i say i was not simply talking of these boards. not only but also.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

The history of the Russian Empire in all its forms (Putin, the USSR, the Tsars) has been one long, sorry tale of war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide, cultural genocide, authoritarianism, ecological destruction and more. None of that justifies crimes committed by Ukrainian far right, but then no body on urban is attempting to do so. Despite assertions to the contrary. The biggest war criminal of all in this conflict is sitting at an extremely long table in the Kremlin.

 

[IC3D]

Right now, however, the most pressing point is not the fine graduation of Ukraine's moral turpitude, but the fact that the army of an enormous neighbour is currently invading the place. Perhaps when they've won the war, that particular aspect of things might need to be an important part of winning the peace.

I'm assuming that all but the most swivel-eyed amongst us wouldn't be arguing that our attempts to prevent Russia's attempt to colonise great chunks of Europe by force aren't going to be fundamentally influenced by just what degree of fashness certain parts of the Ukraine Army might be embodying, so much as ensuring that Ukraine doesn't become the first in a series of sovereign lands that Russia will find some excuse to occupy.

I agree that the goal is to stop Putin in his tracks however it's not a question of moral turpitude in so much how a fundamentalist group which already has a foothold exploits a long grinding conflict.
My example of Afghanistan stands on some level. Broad resistance to Russian imperialism amongst a wide range of people soon ended in religious fascism of the US favoured grouping. Azov was not long ago a stated terrorist group and now painted as hero's, nothing to see there right?

 

[strung out]

Not sure many people, at least on here, are trying to paint the Azov Battalion as heroes, but when for many people in Ukraine, they're the only defence against actual genocide and war crimes, it's hardly surprising that they're being lauded by the people of Ukraine for their actions.

Not sure the facile comparison with the SS is accurate. For a start, the SS were involved in the systematic murder and genocide of entire peoples in central and Eastern Europe. Only one side is doing that at the moment.

 

[two sheds]

 

[tim]

The sad thing is that I really think you don't see the damage you are doing to your board persona.

If people with a range of positions and experiences of the left as wide as that between, say LDC and for example me, with lots in between are calling you out do you not for a moment think it might be time to reflect on your own positions and the way you argue them?

I imagine the answer will be 'no' and you will deliver just more and more increasingly weird personal attacks as you paint yourself further into your sad little lonely corner.

Are we all expected to create, maintain, and care about a board persona as part of some personal marketing exercise?

 

[existentialist]

Are we all expected to create, maintain, and care about a board persona as part of some personal marketing exercise?

No, but it doesn't hurt.

 

[Supine]

Are we all expected to create, maintain, and care about a board persona as part of some personal marketing exercise?

No, but you have one whether you put effort in to maintain it or not.

 

[TopCat]

Russia claims US ‘directly involved’ in Ukraine war

Kremlin says White House supplying information used by Kyiv to conduct long-range missile strikes

www.theguardian.com

 

[nogojones]

Russia claims US ‘directly involved’ in Ukraine war

Kremlin says White House supplying information used by Kyiv to conduct long-range missile strikes

www.theguardian.com

I imagine that they've supplied Ukraine with top level intelligence since day one.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not sure many people, at least on here, are trying to paint the Azov Battalion as heroes, but when for many people in Ukraine, they're the only defence against actual genocide and war crimes, it's hardly surprising that they're being lauded by the people of Ukraine for their actions.

Not sure the facile comparison with the SS is accurate. For a start, the SS were involved in the systematic murder and genocide of entire peoples in central and Eastern Europe. Only one side is doing that at the moment.

If you want facile then saying the azov battalion is in no way like the ss as you do ignores whether they might want to be like the ss. The ss didn't leap into existence fully formed, you know. The way the ab used ss symbols suggests they wanted to be like at least the waffen-ss, an elite nazi fighting unit, whether or not they desired to run the vast empire himmler commanded.

 

[TopCat]

I imagine that they've supplied Ukraine with top level intelligence since day one.

This is much more than that. The US are targeting strikes and have control over the weapons.

 

[existentialist]

This is much more than that. The US are targeting strikes and have control over the weapons.

How do you know this? The bit about "control over the weapons"?

 

[Pickman's model]

How do you know this? The bit about "control over the weapons"?

If Washington can vet and veto targets as the guardian article says, they're effectively permitting the strikes that go ahead

 

[existentialist]

If Washington can vet and veto targets as the guardian article says, they're effectively permitting the strikes that go ahead

But that isn't the same as having direct control over the weapons, which I think is where TopCat is going.

 

[IC3D]

I'm one for this having gone on from the start. No way are the US going to not control what and where these things pointed at.
The Ukrainian spokesman probably thought as everyone knew it he could say it.

 

[existentialist]

I'm one for this having gone on from the start. No way are the US going to not control what and where these things pointed at.
The Ukrainian spokesman probably thought as everyone knew it he could say it.

Yeah, well, you haven't exactly established much of any credibility in regard to your prognostications on these threads...

 

[Crispy]

Ukraine themselves say that the US has veto over HIMARS tageting and has been supplying realtime satellite intelligence.
They've been clear from the start that supply of the weapon was contigent on Ukraine not using against targets in Russia.
I doubt American soldiers are on the ground pressing the red button. That would be too far over the deniability line.

 

[Pickman's model]

But that isn't the same as having direct control over the weapons, which I think is where TopCat is going.

If you say this target and not that target then I don't think you're too far off direct control, you're more involved in the conflict than just a supplier of arms

 

[frogwoman]

Just started listening so not heard it but here's an interview with a trans woman fighting in Ukraine

Episode 27: Sarah Ashton on the Situation in Kharkiv and Being "Trans at the Front". Episode: Episode 27: Sarah Ashton on the Situation in Kharkiv and Being "Trans at the Front" Podcast Republic . Media: https://anchor.fm/s/3ca9dcec/podcas.../2022-7-2/279163144-44100-2-ee3be7a870067.m4a . -- Sent from Podcast Republic.

 

[xenon]

If you say this target and not that target then I don't think you're too far off direct control, you're more involved in the conflict than just a supplier of arms

Not really. If I lent you my car and said you can drive it around this town but don’t take it beyond. It doesn’t mean I am in direct control. I agree that the US, NATO, the west have to be very careful about this though. And not have equipment supplied attacking targets in Russia itself.

 

[2hats]

Ukraine themselves say that the US has veto over HIMARS tageting and has been supplying realtime satellite intelligence.

No doubt that some of that information is also factored into frustrating attempts to neutralise HIMARS/MLRS.

 

[IC3D]

Lack of internal security seems to be a big problem that would prompt the US to retain tight control over their assets. Zelenski recently sacked his chief of internal security and many others in the command on suspicion of being informers.

Sidelining of spy chief spotlights Ukraine's battle to purge Russian agents

The sidelining of Ukraine's domestic spy chief on Sunday laid bare Kyiv's battle far from the frontlines to purge its powerful security agencies of collaborators and Russian agents.

www.reuters.com

How Russia Spread a Secret Web of Agents Across Ukraine

 

[Pickman's model]

Not really. If I lent you my car and said you can drive it around this town but don’t take it beyond. It doesn’t mean I am in direct control. I agree that the US, NATO, the west have to be very careful about this though. And not have equipment supplied attacking targets in Russia itself.

What I hate about urban is the way nuance is ignored. So here for instance where I've said I don't think the Americans are too far off direct control you've ignored the too far off bit. And that's a crap analogy, it'd be a lot closer if you'd lent me your car and said you can run down certain people in it but I'll tell you who to avoid.

 

[TopCat]

What I hate about urban is the way nuance is ignored. So here for instance where I've said I don't think the Americans are too far off direct control you've ignored the too far off bit. And that's a crap analogy, it'd be a lot closer if you'd lent me your car and said you can run down certain people in it but I'll tell you who to avoid.

Top work

 

[agricola]

Lack of internal security seems to be a big problem that would prompt the US to retain tight control over their assets. Zelenski recently sacked his chief of internal security and many others in the command on suspicion of being informers.

Sidelining of spy chief spotlights Ukraine's battle to purge Russian agents

The sidelining of Ukraine's domestic spy chief on Sunday laid bare Kyiv's battle far from the frontlines to purge its powerful security agencies of collaborators and Russian agents.

www.reuters.com

How Russia Spread a Secret Web of Agents Across Ukraine

Not sure about that article at all, especially the suggestion that Russia "put" its agents there.

The vast majority of these types are probably people who'd always been there, who remained there during the swings between pro- and anti-Russian governments over the years and almost certainly would have stayed there had another pro-Russian government come about. According to reports it seems that many of them didn't want to go further than that and actively collaborate (at least given the standard of people who have collaborated, like that baby-swinger in Kherson) and it is a big stretch to see these people as traitors to the state (as opposed to disliking / being not arsed about the current regime).