Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Pickman's model]

Yeah, that's a fair point. And I think many aspects of US politics aren't that far behind Russia in terms of their kleptocratic/corrupt aspects.

Nor, really, are the British - we've just been much better, until now, at putting a clean face on it. I get the impression that now, just like Russia, we don't seem to care any more.

it's like jeffery archer had never been a minister, nor tony blair pm

 

[TopCat]

Yeah, for sure. Started last week. Read Chomsky. Decided I was an anarchist. Refused to wash or tidy my bedroom. Denounced washers and tidy people as tools of the State. Wish I'd voted for Comrade Corbyn. Is there anything else to do?

I'm sure you're sound in reality TopCat - but I think you're lost and very wrong on this topic (Ukraine, not me). Anyway suggest we move on, I'll leave it there on this.

I’m not leaving it there. You have insulted me and refused to be transparent about yourself. There is still much to discuss

 

[LDC]

I’m not leaving it there. You have insulted me and refused to be transparent about yourself. There is still much to discuss

FFS, transparent on a public forum about a whole load of personal and political stuff?! Fuck off you weird loon. Sticking you on ignore now.

 

[TopCat]

FFS, transparent on a public forum about a whole load of personal and political stuff?! Fuck off you weird loon. Sticking you on ignore now.

I suspect an academic type, not too clever. Never involved in any real struggle who reads a lot of books but understands little.

It’s great this assumptions game eh?

 

[A380]

I’m not leaving it there. You have insulted me and refused to be transparent about yourself. There is still much to discuss

The sad thing is that I really think you don't see the damage you are doing to your board persona.

If people with a range of positions and experiences of the left as wide as that between, say LDC and for example me, with lots in between are calling you out do you not for a moment think it might be time to reflect on your own positions and the way you argue them?

I imagine the answer will be 'no' and you will deliver just more and more increasingly weird personal attacks as you paint yourself further into your sad little lonely corner.

 

[existentialist]

I suspect an academic type, not too clever. Never involved in any real struggle who reads a lot of books but understands little.

It’s great this assumptions game eh?

Fill yer boots

FWIW, I have zero credentials in this class struggle pissing context. Just thought I'd put that out there to save time.

 

[kebabking]

I suspect an academic type, not too clever. Never involved in any real struggle who reads a lot of books but understands little.

It’s great this assumptions game eh?

I think you'd be heroically wrong with those assumptions, but do, please, continue to make yourself, and your views, look even more ridiculous by continuing along this line.

 

[TopCat]

The sad thing is that I really think you don't see the damage you are doing to your board persona.

If people with a range of positions and experiences of the left as wide as that between, say LDC and for example me, with lots in between are calling you out do you not for a moment think it might be time to reflect on your own positions and the way you argue them?

I imagine the answer will be 'no' and you will deliver just more and more increasingly weird personal attacks as you paint yourself further into your sad little lonely corner.

I don’t see myself as a brand or a persona and really don’t care much what others think of me.

There is much to discuss though and just throwing insults at me does rather show the paucity of many posters positions.

Try to leave the insults eh? I might not post more pictures of Nazis you support if you do.

 

[TopCat]

The sad thing is that I really think you don't see the damage you are doing to your board persona.

If people with a range of positions and experiences of the left as wide as that between, say LDC and for example me, with lots in between are calling you out do you not for a moment think it might be time to reflect on your own positions and the way you argue them?

I imagine the answer will be 'no' and you will deliver just more and more increasingly weird personal attacks as you paint yourself further into your sad little lonely corner.

How did your communist
Mother take the news you mourned the Azov brigade? Did you tell her? It still seems like lamenting the death of SS men.

 

[Pickman's model]

given the woeful reputation of the azov brigade (a quick search reveals many articles from the last three months talking about their far-right associations) it's to me surprising that the ukrainians didn't either rename the regiment or disband it and assign its component companies or units to other formations.

 

[LDC]

given the woeful reputation of the azov brigade (a quick search reveals many articles from the last three months talking about their far-right associations) it's to me surprising that the ukrainians didn't either rename the regiment or disband it and assign its component companies or units to other formations.

They've been pretty busy I heard somewhere. But they have 're-branded' somewhat with their insignia. To be also be met with understandable cynicism by some.

 

[emanymton]

I don’t see myself as a brand or a persona and really don’t care much what others think of me.

There is much to discuss though and just throwing insults at me does rather show the paucity of many posters positions.

Try to leave the insults eh? I might not post more pictures of Nazis you support if you do.

Yeah what sort of idiot just throws insults around?

Did you kill your mum and keep her for a bit? Is that how you know? Could you write another post more stupid?

Are you going to get an Azov tattoo to remember those brave boys?

These are your people Kev the stupid

 

[LDC]

I suspect an academic type, not too clever. Never involved in any real struggle who reads a lot of books but understands little.

It’s great this assumptions game eh?

I don't read much and I understand even less tbh.

Anyway, sorry if you've taken this personally, a bit of back-and-forth insults is just standard internet fare isn't it? And just to remind you, you have been throwing around accusations of people being far right/fascist sympathizers all over the place, so it's hardly been a one way street has it?

Anyway, we really must move on from me and you, I heard there's some important stuff happening somewhere?

 

[TopCat]

given the woeful reputation of the azov brigade (a quick search reveals many articles from the last three months talking about their far-right associations) it's to me surprising that the ukrainians didn't either rename the regiment or disband it and assign its component companies or units to other formations.

They are proud of the Azov brigade.

 

[Pickman's model]

They've been pretty busy I heard somewhere. But they have 're-branded' somewhat with their insignia. To be also be met with understandable cynicism by some.

what, they've been rather busy ever since november 2014, when they were incorporated as a unit of the ukrainian national guard?

 

[A380]

How did your communist
Mother take the news you mourned the Azov brigade? Did you tell her? It still seems like lamenting the death of SS men.

I didn't need to tell her, she is an intelligent politically aware woman who follows the news intently and like, most people, is capable of grasping nuance.

This thread, about one of the most significant foreign policy, humanitarian and political issues of the current century, has been derailed enough now by your spoilt childlike 'look at me, look at me' crayoning and so I'm going to do my best not to engage with you on this it anymore. I may or may not be successful.

 

[LDC]

Me and TopCat having a chat.

 

[TopCat]

I don't read much and I understand even less tbh.

Anyway, sorry if you've taken this personally, a bit of back-and-forth insults is just standard internet fare isn't it? And just to remind you, you have been throwing around accusations of people being far right/fascist sympathizers all over the place, so it's hardly been a one way street has it?

Anyway, we really must move on from me and you, I heard there's some important stuff happening somewhere?

I made myself quite clear. I am glad the Azov brigade members are dead. People who lament their deaths whilst asserting they are of the left are at best confused but wrong still.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

8

given the woeful reputation of the azov brigade (a quick search reveals many articles from the last three months talking about their far-right associations) it's to me surprising that the ukrainians didn't either rename the regiment or disband it and assign its component companies or units to other formations.

if they renamed it something else they would be accused of cover-up, Nazis in sheep's clothing. If they dispersed its units elsewhere then Nazis would be taking over the whole Ukrainian army. It's always dead easy to make baseless accusations.

 

[nogojones]

It reminds me of the Covid thing tbh, and the demographic is similar in some ways. The people I have come across stuck like this on Ukraine are without exception late middle to older aged men who used to be involved with anti-fascism or anti-militarist stuff, are a bit isolated and haven't had contact with any movement or groups for ages, and all their political contact comes mediated via the internet. And like you say they have this position adopted early on and haven't been able to reappraise or reflect on it at all.

The only people in the real world I personally know, who hold these views were all full on covid loons as well.

I know more who come from a generally pacifist/stop the war, its bad viewpoint, but are unsure of how this can be achieved. I consider these people decent folks, who might have a bit of an idealist outlook, but generally on the right side.

 

[LDC]

what, they've been rather busy ever since november 2014, when they were incorporated as a unit of the ukrainian national guard?

Pretty much. But of course there's all sorts of other pressures, not least political pressure and support for them, as well as the dead hand of slow moving military bureaucracy I'd bet. Of which they'll be a fuck tonne more now thanks to Russia. Think this has been done loads on the far right Ukraine thread iirc.

 

[Pickman's model]

I didn't need to tell her, she is an intelligent politically aware woman who follows the news intently and like, most people, is capable of grasping nuance.

This thread, about one of the most significant foreign policy, humanitarian and political issues of the current century, has been derailed enough now by your spoilt childlike 'look at me, look at me' crayoning and so I'm going to do my best not to engage with you on this it anymore. I may or may not be successful.

to be fair this entire contre-temps could have been avoided if people hadn't been so keen to take TopCat to task, and unless someone's got a killer point to make on the subject perhaps we could move on.

 

[TopCat]

8

if they renamed it something else they would be accused of cover-up, Nazis in sheep's clothing. If they dispersed its units elsewhere then Nazis would be taking over the whole Ukrainian army. It's always dead easy to make baseless accusations.

Do you they they have been characterised wrongly? That they are in fact the good guys? Accusations of being nazi worshippers baseless?

 

[LDC]

I made myself quite clear. I am glad the Azov brigade members are dead. People who lament their deaths whilst asserting they are of the left are at best confused but wrong still.

To which the reply by many (including Ukrainian lefties importantly) has been "Most members of that unit are not far right or Neo-Nazis." Which you haven't responded to. I'd be interested if your happiness at their death is changed by that fact, or you think that the membership of that unit alone makes them 'guilty' and worthy of execution without trial while prisoners in some way irrespective of their own political beliefs?

 

[TopCat]

To which the reply by many (including Ukrainian lefties importantly) has been "Most members of that unit are not far right or Neo-Nazis." Which you haven't responded to. I'd be interested if your happiness at their death is changed by that fact, or you think by the membership of that unit alone makes them 'guilty' and worthy of execution without trial while prisoners in some way irrespective of their own political beliefs?

At best they lay down with dogs and got fleas. At worst they joined because that brigade was an attraction because of its politics.

 

[Pickman's model]

Pretty much. But of course there's all sorts of other pressures, not least political pressure and support for them, as well as the dead hand of slow moving military bureaucracy I'd bet. Of which they'll be a fuck tonne more now thanks to Russia. Think this has been done loads on the far right Ukraine thread iirc.

yeh well that's bollocks (your 'pretty much' and 'dead hand of slow moving military bureaucracy'). and it's not like the division and amalgamation of units never happened during rather hotter wars than ukraine faced before february this year.

 

[Pickman's model]

8

if they renamed it something else they would be accused of cover-up, Nazis in sheep's clothing. If they dispersed its units elsewhere then Nazis would be taking over the whole Ukrainian army. It's always dead easy to make baseless accusations.

rather more cogent arguments than ldc's

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

At best they lay down with dogs and got fleas. At worst they joined because that brigade was an attraction because of its politics.

or something else entirely. The motivations of volunteers, conscripts, regular soldiers etc will be many and varied. Their knowledge of Azov's history and lineage will be varied, as will their knowledge of how it has changed since 2014.

 

[TopCat]

or something else entirely. The motivations of volunteers, conscripts, regular soldiers etc will be many and varied. Their knowledge of Azov's history and lineage will be varied, as will their knowledge of how it has changed since 2014.

Blimey. You don’t think it more likely the notoriety and politics of the brigade attracted recruits?

I doubt any far right types joined the Bob Crow brigade fighting Islamic State for example.

 

[nogojones]

Do you they they have been characterised wrongly? That they are in fact the good guys? Accusations of being nazi worshippers baseless?

Some have been and I imagine that they still contain a number of far right and nazi members - how many is hard to say though. However since their integration into the armed forces, its my understanding that its also become a geographical based unit and with the influx of new recruits post invasion, I would be very surprised if the majority of members had fascist leanings.