Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[TopCat]

Mourn your fallen comrades.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Mourn your fallen comrades.
View attachment 335543

Photos of Millwall supporters should be on a different thread.

 

[TopCat]

Photos of Millwall supporters should be on a different thread.

These are your people Kev the stupid

 

[TopCat]

Its founder Andriy Biletsky, previously the leader of the fascist paramilitary Patriot of Ukraine organization, is an outright white supremacist who in 2010 stated that the mission of Ukraine is to “lead the white races of the world in a final crusade … against Semite-led Untermenschen[subhumans].”

 

[IC3D]

All originally recruited from Europe's most respected Ultras, Dynamo Kyiv. Here pictured celebrating controversially the colour white. It's actually a tone.

 

[LDC]

Mourn your fallen comrades.
View attachment 335543

I just don't get you. We have no idea if any of the murdered were far right. If anything it's likely they weren't. So basically you're celebrating the murder of a load of randoms. Nice look for a leftie. You know you can be critical of Azov and all that without acting like the cunt you are here? Or is that too complex for you to work out?

 

[editor]

Its founder Andriy Biletsky, previously the leader of the fascist paramilitary Patriot of Ukraine organization, is an outright white supremacist who in 2010 stated that the mission of Ukraine is to “lead the white races of the world in a final crusade … against Semite-led Untermenschen[subhumans].”

Weird how you keep banging on about this minority but ne'er have a peep to say about an equally offensive minority much, much closer to home...

Millwall hooligans' 'attention Jews' poster removed and reported to police - Jewish News

Club takes down poster with the term 'achtung Juden' put up by the Millwall Berserkers hooligan group

www.jewishnews.co.uk

London Neo-Nazi Soccer Hooligans Put Up Antisemitic ‘Achtung Juden!’ Poster Taunting Rival Team - Algemeiner.com

An antisemitic poster found in London that recalled Nazi rhetoric has been traced to soccer hooligans connected to English Championship side Millwall FC. The poster shows the words “Achtung Juden!” — German for “attention Jews!” — in red, along with the broken and bloody symbol of London rivals...

www.algemeiner.com

 

[Pickman's model]

Weird how you keep banging on about this minority but ne'er have a peep to say about an equally offensive minority much, much closer to home...

Millwall hooligans' 'attention Jews' poster removed and reported to police - Jewish News

Club takes down poster with the term 'achtung Juden' put up by the Millwall Berserkers hooligan group

www.jewishnews.co.uk

London Neo-Nazi Soccer Hooligans Put Up Antisemitic ‘Achtung Juden!’ Poster Taunting Rival Team - Algemeiner.com

An antisemitic poster found in London that recalled Nazi rhetoric has been traced to soccer hooligans connected to English Championship side Millwall FC. The poster shows the words “Achtung Juden!” — German for “attention Jews!” — in red, along with the broken and bloody symbol of London rivals...

www.algemeiner.com

Poor whataboutery. As I'm sure you observe this is a thread about the war in Ukraine and not hoolies in South London.

 

[TopCat]

Weird how you keep banging on about this minority but ne'er have a peep to say about an equally offensive minority much, much closer to home...

Millwall hooligans' 'attention Jews' poster removed and reported to police - Jewish News

Club takes down poster with the term 'achtung Juden' put up by the Millwall Berserkers hooligan group

www.jewishnews.co.uk

London Neo-Nazi Soccer Hooligans Put Up Antisemitic ‘Achtung Juden!’ Poster Taunting Rival Team - Algemeiner.com

An antisemitic poster found in London that recalled Nazi rhetoric has been traced to soccer hooligans connected to English Championship side Millwall FC. The poster shows the words “Achtung Juden!” — German for “attention Jews!” — in red, along with the broken and bloody symbol of London rivals...

www.algemeiner.com

Piss poor really, even for you.

 

[krink]

That's this thread down the shitter then.

 

[Ax^]

And it was no even RD for once

 

[A380]

That's this thread down the shitter then.

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

[Yossarian]

In other fascist war crimes news, Russia has turned Europe's largest nuclear power station into a fortress and is using it to launch artillery strikes, including apparently random strikes on civilian homes.

Using Nuclear Reactors for Cover, Russians Lob Rockets at Ukrainians

Russia has turned Europe’s largest nuclear power plant into a fortress, stymying Ukraine’s forces and unnerving locals who fear both shelling and a radiation leak.

www.nytimes.com

 

[editor]

In other fascist war crimes news, Russia has turned Europe's largest nuclear power station into a fortress and is using it to launch artillery strikes, including apparently random strikes on civilian homes.

Using Nuclear Reactors for Cover, Russians Lob Rockets at Ukrainians

Russia has turned Europe’s largest nuclear power plant into a fortress, stymying Ukraine’s forces and unnerving locals who fear both shelling and a radiation leak.

www.nytimes.com

I've run out of free articles but you can access it here: archive.ph

As the counterattack picks up, the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant poses a quandary. Russian forces have occupied the nuclear site since March 4 but began using it for artillery strikes only three weeks ago, Ukrainian officials say, about when HIMARS appeared on the battlefield. Shielded from return fire, the Russians are menacing Ukrainian troops advancing toward the Nova Kakhovka dam on the Dnipro River, one of the last remaining crossing points for Russian resupply.
It is a problem Ukraine will have to solve as it moves troops and equipment into the area for the counteroffensive.
The Ukrainian Army’s retaliatory options at Nikopol are limited. One tactic it has tried is to execute precision strikes that avoid, as much as possible, the risk of damaging the reactors. On July 22, for instance, Ukraine’s military intelligence agency reported a strike with a kamikaze drone that blew up an antiaircraft installation and a Grad rocket launcher and that killed soldiers in a tent camp about 150 yards from a reactor.
The fighting near the power plant has renewed worries that the war will set off a release of radiation in a country chockablock with delicate and dangerous nuclear sites, including Chernobyl, which Russia occupied in March but then abandoned. Last
Friday, a huge, roiling plume of black smoke rose a few miles south of the reactors at Zaporizhzhia, and the Ukrainian military said it had hit a Russian ammunition depot.

 

[Yossarian]

I just don't get you. We have no idea if any of the murdered were far right. If anything it's likely they weren't. So basically you're celebrating the murder of a load of randoms. Nice look for a leftie. You know you can be critical of Azov and all that without acting like the cunt you are here? Or is that too complex for you to work out?

Weird thing is, it's not even that unusual a viewpoint, I've seen similar sentiments shared on Facebook way too much - I think some people made their minds up very early on that the far-right elements of Azov represented the Ukrainian government and military as a whole and people protesting the invasion by the blatantly fascist Russian regime were clueless liberals who changed their Facebook profile pictures to Ukrainian flags while failing to grasp the complexity of the situation.

And they have doggedly stuck to that initial take through five months of war crimes in a nationalist regime's war of conquest against its neighbour, it's sad to see how people who probably still consider themselves lifelong antifascists have not only failed to show any kind of solidarity, but have actively been counterproductive when confronted with genuine fascism.

 

[existentialist]

Weird thing is, it's not even that unusual a viewpoint, I've seen similar sentiments shared on Facebook way too much - I think some people made their minds up very early on that the far-right elements of Azov represented the Ukrainian government and military as a whole and people protesting the invasion by the blatantly fascist Russian regime were clueless liberals who changed their Facebook profile pictures to Ukrainian flags while failing to grasp the complexity of the situation.

And they have doggedly stuck to that initial take through five months of war crimes in a nationalist regime's war of conquest against its neighbour, it's sad to see how people who probably still consider themselves lifelong antifascists have not only failed to show any kind of solidarity, but have actively been counterproductive when confronted with genuine fascism.

I found it quite difficult to get my head around the sheer breadth of Russia's willingness to lie outrageously at the beginning of this, and that's as someone who has (a long time ago) studied the Russian language and culture, and had first-hand experience of how deeply ingrained lying, scamming, and graft can be in the Russian psyche - certainly, in that part of the military I had any exposure to.

One gets used to the idea that, even in the biggest lie, there must be some grain of truth, and while there are some grains of truth on which Russia's lies about Ukraine are based, it's tricky to decide how big those grains are. What I have realised, particularly during the last five months is that a) some Russian lies are simply the complete opposite of the truth, and b) very few of the grains of truth in their lies are bigger than microscopic. They seem happy, for example, to characterise the entire Ukrainian political ethos using three-quarters-of-a-century old examples of Ukrainian extremism. And, of course, in doing so, conveniently ignoring the beam in their own eye about the same things. It's projection on a grand scale - what we have is a kleptocracy that is corrupt to its core, and which embraces a national ideology of racism, abuse of power, totalitarianism, and hatred, accusing Ukraine of the very same characteristics.

While I'm sure that Ukraine is not whiter-than-white, it's pretty obvious to me that they could not be anywhere near as bad as Russia tries to claim, because if they were, they'd be as fucked up as Russia is right now - they could not have functioned, politically or militarily, in the way that they are if their culture was that similar to (or, as Russia claims, worse than) its own culture.

 

[LDC]

Weird thing is, it's not even that unusual a viewpoint, I've seen similar sentiments shared on Facebook way too much - I think some people made their minds up very early on that the far-right elements of Azov represented the Ukrainian government and military as a whole and people protesting the invasion by the blatantly fascist Russian regime were clueless liberals who changed their Facebook profile pictures to Ukrainian flags while failing to grasp the complexity of the situation.

And they have doggedly stuck to that initial take through five months of war crimes in a nationalist regime's war of conquest against its neighbour, it's sad to see how people who probably still consider themselves lifelong antifascists have not only failed to show any kind of solidarity, but have actively been counterproductive when confronted with genuine fascism.

It reminds me of the Covid thing tbh, and the demographic is similar in some ways. The people I have come across stuck like this on Ukraine are without exception late middle to older aged men who used to be involved with anti-fascism or anti-militarist stuff, are a bit isolated and haven't had contact with any movement or groups for ages, and all their political contact comes mediated via the internet. And like you say they have this position adopted early on and haven't been able to reappraise or reflect on it at all.

 

[Pickman's model]

Weird thing is, it's not even that unusual a viewpoint, I've seen similar sentiments shared on Facebook way too much - I think some people made their minds up very early on that the far-right elements of Azov represented the Ukrainian government and military as a whole and people protesting the invasion by the blatantly fascist Russian regime were clueless liberals who changed their Facebook profile pictures to Ukrainian flags while failing to grasp the complexity of the situation.

And they have doggedly stuck to that initial take through five months of war crimes in a nationalist regime's war of conquest against its neighbour, it's sad to see how people who probably still consider themselves lifelong antifascists have not only failed to show any kind of solidarity, but have actively been counterproductive when confronted with genuine fascism.

tbh i don't think you'll find a regime in the world which isn't nationalist. nationalism isn't synonymous with fascism, though you appear to use it interchangeably here.

 

[Pickman's model]

It reminds me of the Covid thing tbh, and the demographic is similar in some ways. The people I have come across stuck like this on Ukraine are without exception late middle to older aged men who used to be involved with anti-fascism or anti-militarist stuff, are a bit isolated and haven't had contact with any movement or groups for ages, and all their political contact comes mediated via the internet. And like you say they have this position adopted early on and haven't been able to reappraise or reflect on it at all.

from what i've seen of the covid thing there's a rather wider assemblage of demographics under the anti-vax banner. but then i've just seen them on the street and not sought them out on the internet

 

[two sheds]

I found it quite difficult to get my head around the sheer breadth of Russia's willingness to lie outrageously at the beginning of this, and that's as someone who has (a long time ago) studied the Russian language and culture, and had first-hand experience of how deeply ingrained lying, scamming, and graft can be in the Russian psyche - certainly, in that part of the military I had any exposure to.

One gets used to the idea that, even in the biggest lie, there must be some grain of truth, and while there are some grains of truth on which Russia's lies about Ukraine are based, it's tricky to decide how big those grains are. What I have realised, particularly during the last five months is that a) some Russian lies are simply the complete opposite of the truth, and b) very few of the grains of truth in their lies are bigger than microscopic. They seem happy, for example, to characterise the entire Ukrainian political ethos using three-quarters-of-a-century old examples of Ukrainian extremism. And, of course, in doing so, conveniently ignoring the beam in their own eye about the same things. It's projection on a grand scale - what we have is a kleptocracy that is corrupt to its core, and which embraces a national ideology of racism, abuse of power, totalitarianism, and hatred, accusing Ukraine of the very same characteristics.

While I'm sure that Ukraine is not whiter-than-white, it's pretty obvious to me that they could not be anywhere near as bad as Russia tries to claim, because if they were, they'd be as fucked up as Russia is right now - they could not have functioned, politically or militarily, in the way that they are if their culture was that similar to (or, as Russia claims, worse than) its own culture.

Increasing parallels with willingness to lie between Russian government and American Republicans, lies also often distributed in same manner: Facebook and the like where there's bot accounts and no real fact checking.

 

[LDC]

from what i've seen of the covid thing there's a rather wider assemblage of demographics under the anti-vax banner. but then i've just seen them on the street and not sought them out on the internet

Yeah definitely Covid stuff has a wider demographic, this just feels like a small subset of that to me.

 

[existentialist]

Increasing parallels with willingness to lie between Russian government and American Republicans, lies also often distributed in same manner: Facebook and the like where there's bot accounts and no real fact checking.

Yeah, that's a fair point. And I think many aspects of US politics aren't that far behind Russia in terms of their kleptocratic/corrupt aspects.

Nor, really, are the British - we've just been much better, until now, at putting a clean face on it. I get the impression that now, just like Russia, we don't seem to care any more.

 

[TopCat]

It reminds me of the Covid thing tbh, and the demographic is similar in some ways. The people I have come across stuck like this on Ukraine are without exception late middle to older aged men who used to be involved with anti-fascism or anti-militarist stuff, are a bit isolated and haven't had contact with any movement or groups for ages, and all their political contact comes mediated via the internet. And like you say they have this position adopted early on and haven't been able to reappraise or reflect on it at all.

Are your politics based in struggle?

 

[LDC]

Yes thanks. Struggle and my daily life. And contact with people and groups in that part of the world. None of whom have your fucking stupid position.

 

[TopCat]

Yes thanks. Struggle and my daily life. And contact with people and groups in that part of the world. None of whom have your fucking stupid position.

What struggles have you involved yourself in?

 

[LDC]

What struggles have you involved yourself in?

Erm... I'm not spilling out a whole load of personal and political CV stuff on here thanks. I also worked in Ukraine in Donetsk in 2015 for 6 months, not that it gave me any deep political insights, but I saw life under Russian occupation first hand.

 

[TopCat]

Erm... I'm not spilling out a whole load of personal and political CV stuff on here thanks.

So not much I assume.

 

[Yossarian]

tbh i don't think you'll find a regime in the world which isn't nationalist. nationalism isn't synonymous with fascism, though you appear to use it interchangeably here.

I could have said "an ultranationialist, far-right, and authoritarian regime based around a cult of personality and an obsession with righting perceived historical wrongs" but that might have been belabouring the point a little.

 

[LDC]

So not much I assume.

Yeah, for sure. Started last week. Read Chomsky. Decided I was an anarchist. Refused to wash or tidy my bedroom. Denounced washers and tidy people as tools of the State. Wish I'd voted for Comrade Corbyn. Is there anything else to do?

I'm sure you're sound in reality TopCat - but I think you're lost and very wrong on this topic (Ukraine, not me). Anyway suggest we move on, I'll leave it there on this.

 

[two sheds]

Erm... I'm not spilling out a whole load of personal and political CV stuff on here thanks. I also worked in Ukraine in Donetsk in 2015 for 6 months, not that it gave me any deep political insights, but I saw life under Russian occupation first hand.

Not to mention the constant personal level struggle of working in the NHS I'd have thought. Enough to give a lot of people PTSD.