Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[two sheds]

George W seems to have had a moment of clarity in his advancing years:

George Bush bungles speech condemning Putin invasion of Ukraine with Iraq reference

‘And the decision of one man to launch a wholly unjustified and brutal invasion of Iraq... I mean of Ukraine’

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Pickman's model]

Another reason we cannot afford the war Hydrogen sulphide from Russian bombs 'could cause environmental disaster' - summary: possible extinction of all life in azov sea and contamination in black and mediterranean seas from hydrogen sulphide stored at azovstal works

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

This is quite likely to be a pearoast given the number of views it has, but just in case it isn’t, a documentary produced from the contents of a young Russian officer’s phone that was recovered in Ukraine. A long watch, but shows the background/family/prewar period for the first 14 minutes then in action. Note the lack of situational awareness, general chaos, poorly maintained equipment and casual regard for life. Not particularly grisly or anything.

Very well done. Worth watching.

 

[frogwoman]

A friend who follows the Ukrainian frisbee federation just posted this about a professional frisbee player (I'm guessing) who was killed in Kharkiv (automatically translated through fb). Just shows how the war is affecting all aspects of life there

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Although red trousers are acceptable which is how kebabking got in.

Is kebabking a Rupert?

 

[teuchter]

Before the invasion started, was there ever any clear picture about whether any of those Eastern regions might have had a majority in favour of joining Russia, had there been a referendum?

 

[spitfire]

Is kebabking a Rupert?

I can neither confirm or deny anything further to the press.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Another reason we cannot afford the war Hydrogen sulphide from Russian bombs 'could cause environmental disaster' - summary: possible extinction of all life in azov sea and contamination in black and mediterranean seas from hydrogen sulphide stored at azovstal works

The black sea is not a particularly healthy ecosystem at the best of times. It's completely dead below 150 metres. Being the sewage outlet pipe for about quarter of a billion people doesn't help.

 

[rubbershoes]

This is true. The German fleet scuttled at Scapa Flow in 1919 was able to be used as a source of low-background steel because the ships were sunk without loss of life.

I have a piece of a turbine blade from the SMS Kronprinz Wilhelm. Obtained with permission

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

There going to be a lethal iron harvest in Ukraine in the next few decades. Appalling

MAG International (Mines Advisory Group) the de-mining NGO are currently advertising a vacancy for a country director for Ukraine.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

A few War graves - like Royal Oak - are off limits for diving but others can be dived. Some of them have their entrances concreted shut to keep drivers out.

Moskva is in 300ft of water, which is deep for scuba diving, so only high tech divers will be getting close.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

This is true. The German fleet scuttled at Scapa Flow in 1919 was able to be used as a source of low-background steel because the ships were sunk without loss of life.

But for some reason civillian ships don't seem to get the same reverence. I guess you only get to rest in peace if you were on your way to kill someone else when you died.

Weird distinction to make, for sure.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Not sure what status that would give the Moskva, a battleship that, according to Russia, sank for unknown reasons while there was no war going on.

Very good point!

 

[Supine]

Weird distinction to make, for sure.

Tbf the Royal Oak had 835 die so it really was a major tragedy. There is a coast guard station on the cliff overlooking it for protection.

 

[kebabking]

Is kebabking a Rupert?

For my many sins - or, perhaps more accurately, my many sins are because I'm a Rupert.

I actually do have red trousers as well.

 

[frogwoman]

Thread by @astroehlein on Thread Reader App

@astroehlein: NEW: In 17 villages & small towns in #Ukraine that had been under Russia occupation, Human Rights Watch found: ⚠️ 31 summary executions & other unlawful killings; ⚠️ 6 enforced disappearances; ⚠️ 7 cas...…

threadreaderapp.com

 

[Pickman's model]

The black sea is not a particularly healthy ecosystem at the best of times. It's completely dead below 150 metres. Being the sewage outlet pipe for about quarter of a billion people doesn't help.

the black sea is already overfished Black Sea facing ecological disaster due to overfishing but hundreds of thousands of people directly depend on the sea The State of Mediterranean and Black Sea Fisheries 2020 - World with many more tens if not hundreds of thousands of jobs to some extent dependent on the industry. just because it's not too good now oughtn't be a response to things becoming worse.

as for the completely dead below 150m it's been that way for many many centuries Shipwreck found in Black Sea is 'world's oldest intact'

an article about the damage the war is doing to the black sea Press release – A War in the Black Sea and its Effects on Marine Environment | TUDAV

 

[pogofish]

Wouldn't it be officially classed as a war grave and therefore off limits for diving?

The jokes at the time of its sinking, about the ship, the Moskva, being reclassified as a submarine were funny, but wouldn't diving the wreck be counted as desecration of a war grave?

Not sure how it works, but I had a vague recollection that navy ships sunk in battle with loss of life were considered sensitive?

I have a vague memory that there is some international convention that requires ships to be specifically designated as war graves to get protection. Although strictly, they don't need to be lost in war or even be military ships - eg The Atlantic Conveyor. Aircraft however get this protection automatically.

Russia however may not yet be in a position where they are willing to do that just yet, for their own reasons.

 

[Pickman's model]

I have a vague memory that there is some international convention that requires ships to be specifically designated as war graves to get protection. Although strictly, they don't need to be lost in war or even be military ships - eg The Atlantic Conveyor. Aircraft however get this protection automatically.

Russia however may not yet be in a position where they are willing to do that just yet, for their own reasons.

the german knife-makers boker sell a knife made from the tirpitz

Spoiler

Tirpitz-Damascus 42

A piece of history comes to life! The Tirpitz, sister ship of the legendary Bismarck, was the largest battleship ever launched for the German Navy. After the commissioning in February 1941, the Tirpitz soon became a permanent threat for...

www.boker.de

 

[2hats]

The black sea is not a particularly healthy ecosystem at the best of times.

The Black Sea is quite 'rich' in radionuclides (Chornobyl accident originated Sr-90, Cs-137), which continue to flow into it via the Dnieper River and associated water courses/canals to this day.

 

[SpookyFrank]

the german knife-makers boker sell a knife made from the tirpitz
View attachment 323222

Spoiler

View attachment 323221

Tirpitz-Damascus 42

A piece of history comes to life! The Tirpitz, sister ship of the legendary Bismarck, was the largest battleship ever launched for the German Navy. After the commissioning in February 1941, the Tirpitz soon became a permanent threat for...

www.boker.de

Why not honour the memory of a Nazi warship which bravely spent the entire war cowering in port despite being completely unsinkable right up until yer man Barnes Wallace and his tallboys showed up and sank it.

 

[David Clapson]

Are there any good articles about possible future wars if Russia is bled dry and is taken advantage of by anti-Putin factions in the Caucasus or elsewhere?

 

[pogofish]

the german knife-makers boker sell a knife made from the tirpitz
View attachment 323222

Spoiler

View attachment 323221

Tirpitz-Damascus 42

A piece of history comes to life! The Tirpitz, sister ship of the legendary Bismarck, was the largest battleship ever launched for the German Navy. After the commissioning in February 1941, the Tirpitz soon became a permanent threat for...

www.boker.de

My memory is that the Tirpitz was never designated as a war grave and as it was only partially sunk and posed considerable environmental risks, it was scrapped in situ to below the waterline and as many of the bodies as could be recovered were brought ashore and buried?


Norway also has ongoing problems with a number of other sunken vessels that were designated as war graves but now pose serious environmental risks - Mostly from fuel but notably a submarine that was loaded-up with a highly toxic mercury compound that is now in a very fragile condition.

IIRC there were significant steps taken to remove oil from the Royal Oak and other vessels in Scapa Flow back in the late 1990s, using minimally invasive methods that respected its war grave status.

 

[cupid_stunt]

The scamming bastards want to start charging Ukraine for electricity from the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power station, that was captured back in February, and indicated that they intend to keep the occupied areas in southern Ukraine, in addition to the Donbass, which is hardly surprising.

Russia’s deputy prime minister, Marat Khusnullin, was quoted by Russian news agencies as saying:

If the energy system of Ukraine is ready to receive and pay, then (the plant) will work for Ukraine. If not, then ( the plant) will work for Russia.

Khusnullin’s remarks came after Russian officials indicated that Moscow intends to remain in territories it has occupied in southern Ukraine, such as the Kherson region and large parts of Zaporizhzhia LINK

Plus, they are blackmailing the west, by saying they will only allow Ukraine's ports to operate and export grain, if removal of sanctions are considered.

Russian deputy foreign minister, Andrei Rudenko, was quoted as saying, "You have to not only appeal to the Russian Federation but also look deeply at the whole complex of reasons that caused the current food crisis and, in the first instance, these are the sanctions that have been imposed against Russia by the US and the EU that interfere with normal free trade, encompassing food products including wheat, fertilisers and others."

Rudenko’s remarks come after the United Nations food chief, David Beasley, pleaded with Vladimir Putin, saying millions would die around the world because of the Russian blockade of Black Sea ports. Addressing the Russian president directly, Beasley said. "If you have any heart at all for the rest of the world, regardless of how you feel about Ukraine, you need to open up those ports." LINK

Millions are probably going to die.

 

[MickiQ]

He doesn't seem to care any about the lives of his own soldiers never mind people in Africa, South America or Asia. I suspect he would be quite happy for millions to die so he can point the finger and make demands. This Beasley ought to be appealing to the Russian generals (those that the Ukrainians haven't yet done in) and say "If you have any heart at all you need to shoot the fucker now"

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Before the invasion started, was there ever any clear picture about whether any of those Eastern regions might have had a majority in favour of joining Russia, had there been a referendum?

Look it up on Wikipedia. Any and all referenda in a time of war after major ethnic cleansing or refugee flight, with widespread intimidation and censorship and with no proper independent oversight will produce the result hoped for by its organisers. Donetsk had a referendum to establish itself as an independent state with indeterminate boundaries. Nuff said, really.
Even if all was fair and proper in a referendum Putin would never even allow any such vote on land already controlled by the Russian state.

 

[Dogsauce]

About that port blockade:

Reuters: US wants to give Ukraine “advanced anti-ship missiles” to defeat Russia's naval blockade.

The White House is looking to arm Ukraine with Boeing Harpoon and Naval Strike missiles made by Kongsberg and Raytheon Technologies, Reuters reports, citing U.S. officials.

Could be some more wrecks to dive.

It is also reported that Ukraine has been badgering the US for longer range missiles, but that the US is reluctant to provide these over fears they will be used to strike deeper into Russia and cause escalation.

 

[Yossarian]

According to former Trump administration national security official Fiona Hill, Putin didn't invade while Trump was president because he thought the US would negotiate a peace deal and wanted to wait until he was dealing with somebody who knows where Ukraine is.

If she's telling the truth, which is always a very big if with Trump officials, I wonder if the shield of ignorance supposedly protecting Ukraine would have lasted another four years.

"He had to keep explaining things, and Putin doesn’t like to do that ... He thought that somebody like Biden, who’s a transatlanticist, who knows all about NATO, who actually knows where Ukraine is, and actually knows something about the history, and is very steeped in international affairs, would be the right person to engage with as opposed to somebody that you have to explain everything to all the time, honestly,” the former national security official added.

Fiona Hill says Putin ‘had to keep explaining things’ to Trump

Former Trump White House national security official Fiona Hill said Russian President Vladimir Putin had “to explain everything to all the time” to former President Trump. “He had…

thehill.com

 

[krtek a houby]

According to former Trump administration national security official Fiona Hill, Putin didn't invade while Trump was president because he thought the US would negotiate a peace deal and wanted to wait until he was dealing with somebody who knows where Ukraine is.

If she's telling the truth, which is always a very big if with Trump officials, I wonder if the shield of ignorance supposedly protecting Ukraine would have lasted another four years.

"He had to keep explaining things, and Putin doesn’t like to do that ... He thought that somebody like Biden, who’s a transatlanticist, who knows all about NATO, who actually knows where Ukraine is, and actually knows something about the history, and is very steeped in international affairs, would be the right person to engage with as opposed to somebody that you have to explain everything to all the time, honestly,” the former national security official added.

Fiona Hill says Putin ‘had to keep explaining things’ to Trump

Former Trump White House national security official Fiona Hill said Russian President Vladimir Putin had “to explain everything to all the time” to former President Trump. “He had…

thehill.com

Give it another couple of years & it'll be back to the Putinsplaining.

 

[Raheem]

So Americans, if they have any decency, need to vote for idiots. Anything else is blatant provocation.