Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[zahir]

The Guardian is now reporting on it.

 

[Dogsauce]

Last paragraph on the BBC article includes a bit of sanitation…

 

[Dogsauce]

Anyway, a bit worrying what an angry Bear might do in response to this incident. Wouldn’t like to be a Ukrainian POW right now.

 

[A380]

I don’t feel that comfortable celebrating this incident tbh, surely not all the Russians on board were war criminals/rapists/Putin bootlickers etc. War is shit

Yes, you can feel for the poor sods, especially anyone who has gone into the water in the dark while still hating what they are doing. Similar to the men that died when the Belgrano was sunk. Sometimes we forget why peace is so valuable.

I wonder what the rest of the Russian Navy will be doing now, and how the Putin media will spin this one to the people back home?

 

[David Clapson]

Putin outmanoeuvred by women leaders. Sweden and Finland could join Nato ‘within weeks’ That's got to hurt. Sanna Marin in her biker jacket is making Vlad's biker cosplay look even more tragic

 

[cupid_stunt]

I don’t feel that comfortable celebrating this incident tbh, surely not all the Russians on board were war criminals/rapists/Putin bootlickers etc. War is shit

I've no problem celebrating the ship being destroyed, God only knows how much damage it has done & lives it has taken, and how much more it could have done, whilst also regretting any lose of life, despite them being the aggressors.

I like this comment from that Guardian link above -

Earlier this evening, Ukraine said it struck and damaged a Russian warship in the Black Sea, according to a Telegram messaged posted by Odessa governor Maksym Marchenko.

“It has been confirmed that the missile cruiser Moskva today went exactly where it was sent by our border guards on Snake Island!” Marchenko said.

 

[maomao]

Odd how they got it with missiles that were definitely Ukranian within a few days of being promised anti ship missiles by the UK. Hopefully it had lots of weapons on board that are now useless.

 

[keybored]

Odd how they got it with missiles that were definitely Ukranian within a few days of being promised anti ship missiles by the UK. Hopefully it had lots of weapons on board that are now useless.

It was basically a floating cruise missile launch platform (plus a vast array of other munitions). While I hope as many crew as possible were rescued unharmed, fuck that boat tbh.

 

[kebabking]

It all looks a bit totemic.

The Moskva is a Guided Missile Cruiser, she's 10,000 tons, admittedly 40 years old, and armed with long range surface to surface, and surface to air missiles, as well as formidable short range air defence systems (6 CIWS, plus missiles, while only 3 CIWS on 65,000 ton RN aircraft carrier).

Her job is to create a large bubble within which other Russian ships (amphibious task group?) can operate in relative safety.

The Ukrainian missiles shouldn't have got near her, but either because her crew weren't at action stations, or because her systems weren't working properly, they did. Russian media are saying ammunition fire, but fire is what kills ships - when HMS Sheffield was destroyed in the Falklands war, the Exocet missile that hit her didn't detonate, it was the rocket motor that caused the fire...

 

[Flavour]

This may be the largest warship to be sunk in combat since ww2. It is/was bigger than the Belgrano

 

[MrCurry]

Putin outmanoeuvred by women leaders. Sweden and Finland could join Nato ‘within weeks’ That's got to hurt. Sanna Marin in her biker jacket is making Vlad's biker cosplay look even more tragic

Finland and Sweden joining NATO probably deserves its own thread at this point, as it’s seeming like a nailed on certainty at this point.

For Putin’s war, which was sold at home as being about preventing NATO expansion, to result in the most significant expansion of that alliance close to Russia’s borders will have to lead to consequences within Russia. It might become the most lasting symbol of the failure of Putin’s strategy and I hope it brings him down.

 

[Cid]

Odd how they got it with missiles that were definitely Ukranian within a few days of being promised anti ship missiles by the UK. Hopefully it had lots of weapons on board that are now useless.

From a quick google Ukraine's have significantly longer range... Though I imagine having the UK ones there to deal with possible landing efforts made the calculation about whether to use them on a moderately speculative target more justifiable.

 

[MrCurry]

This may be the largest warship to be sunk in combat since ww2. It is/was bigger than the Belgrano

Has it been sunk though? The reports I’m seeing via BBC and Sky say ”in flames“ and “damaged“. Maybe you’ve seen something more up to date?

 

[tim]

Well that'll piss off Putin, not that he can do much about it, what with being a little busy elsewhere.

It's at moments like this that I miss not being able to follows George Galloway's fulminations.

 

[Flavour]

It's all unconfirmed and will remain so for a while but the twitter noise suggests it has sunk:

https://mobile.twitter.com/OSINT88

 

[Cid]

Has it been sunk though? The reports I’m seeing via BBC and Sky say ”in flames“ and “damaged“. Maybe you’ve seen something more up to date?

Russian MOD said it suffered an ammunition detonation and all crew (all surviving crew I guess is implied there) evacuated, with severe damage. So if they're confirming that much likely to be at best salvage.

e2a: that's reported in RIA novosti, so state media.

 

[strung out]

Has it been sunk though? The reports I’m seeing via BBC and Sky say ”in flames“ and “damaged“. Maybe you’ve seen something more up to date?

It doesn't make much difference whether it's been sunk or just put permanently out of action. They'll have ended the ship's involvement in this war at the very least.

 

[maomao]

Russia has two more the same size but won't be able to get them through the Dardonelles. A US commentator on Twitter saying the rescued crew are being used to replace infantry at Mariupol. This sounds very unlikely to me, the skills involved are surely not that trasferrable.

 

[frogwoman]

I've no problem celebrating the ship being destroyed, God only knows how much damage it has done & lives it has taken, and how much more it could have done, whilst also regretting any lose of life, despite them being the aggressors.

I like this comment from that Guardian link above -

The ship being sunk is a good thing for the Ukrainians, I don't want to celebrate ordinary crew and soldiers etc. dying though if any have (as seems likely)

 

[tim]

Every day in every way I keep thinking that man’s a cunt.

A cunt with courage, strength and indefatigablity.

 

[Kaka Tim]

So - War nerds - the warships role was - essentially - a missile platform? Sea to land and sea to air? How much of a blow is it militarily to the Russians? Would it help the Ukrainians in terms of in terms of pushing the Russians out of Kherson and on the coast generally? Does it make other Russian naval vessels more vulnerable to air strikes?
Major blow - and embarrassment - for the Russian Navy id have thought. Losing the flag ship of their Black Sea Fleet has got to hurt.

 

[kebabking]

Russia has two more the same size but won't be able to get them through the Dardonelles. A US commentator on Twitter saying the rescued crew are being used to replace infantry at Mariupol. This sounds very unlikely to me, the skills involved are surely not that trasferrable.

Dunno - the skills thing is entirely true, but there's some evidence that our friend is throwing people in willy-nilly. A Russian BMP infantry fighting vehicle was destroyed within the last week and its crew, all officers, were meteorologists.

They probably shouldn't have been within 50 miles of the front, and they'd probably never been in a BMP before.

The Russian military has a cultural history of this kind of thing. They simply don't see casualties as casualties, they see them as heroic martyrs for the motherland, and you just can't have too many of them....

 

[kebabking]

So - War nerds - the warships role was - essentially - a missile platform? Sea to land and sea to air? How much of a blow is it militarily to the Russians? Would it help the Ukrainians in terms of in terms of pushing the Russians out of Kherson and on the coast generally? Does it make other Russian naval vessels more vulnerable to air strikes?
Major blow - and embarrassment - for the Russian Navy id have thought. Losing the flag ship of their Black Sea Fleet has got to hurt.

It means there'll be no amphibious landing. The Ukrainians can probably release units held in Odessa that were kept there to fight off a landing and send them off elsewhere.

Fresh troops, equipment intact. It's good news. Of course, the Russians can now use their own marines from the black sea amphibious units to their other fronts.

Probably better news for the Ukrainians over all - both sides get to concentrate their forces, but the Ukrainians get a big morale boost.

 

[dilute micro]

It all looks a bit totemic.

The Moskva is a Guided Missile Cruiser, she's 10,000 tons, admittedly 40 years old, and armed with long range surface to surface, and surface to air missiles, as well as formidable short range air defence systems (6 CIWS, plus missiles, while only 3 CIWS on 65,000 ton RN aircraft carrier).

Her job is to create a large bubble within which other Russian ships (amphibious task group?) can operate in relative safety.

The Ukrainian missiles shouldn't have got near her, but either because her crew weren't at action stations, or because her systems weren't working properly, they did. Russian media are saying ammunition fire, but fire is what kills ships - when HMS Sheffield was destroyed in the Falklands war, the Exocet missile that hit her didn't detonate, it was the rocket motor that caused the fire...

I was looking at that last night. It's possible that they were turned off or the crew wasn't watching them. Maybe they got accustomed to thinking they couldn't get hit and let their guard down. I'm surprised that it sounds as if the Russian navy is giving up on the ship so easilly.

 

[teuchter]

'Am on a Twitter room with lots of open source folks - they really think this is real and seem to have info on what might have happened (assessment of an ex Royal Navy folk):

• distracted by some air threat while near the coast
• missed missiles coming off the coast
• possibly poor training involved too

They really seem convinced that not only was it hit but that it is almost certainly now sunk. They seem to have tapped into its radio frequencies as they sent SOS calls etc.

The tone of those tweets is a bit too much like an excitable teenager playing video games for my liking. I agree with frogwoman, it probably involves a load of terrified young men, who didn't want to be there in the first place, dying and celebration seems like the wrong response.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Finland and Sweden joining NATO probably deserves its own thread at this point, as it’s seeming like a nailed on certainty at this point.

Agreed -

Finland & Sweden, and NATO membership.

It was suggested on the main thread that we needed a new thread on Finland and Sweden possibly joining NATO, so here it is. Finland will decide whether to apply for NATO membership in the next few weeks as it has to be "prepared for all kinds of actions from Russia", the country's prime...

www.urban75.net

 

[frogwoman]

There's only one casualty that's going to end the war, let's be honest.

 

[Supine]

So - War nerds - the warships role was - essentially - a missile platform? Sea to land and sea to air? How much of a blow is it militarily to the Russians? Would it help the Ukrainians in terms of in terms of pushing the Russians out of Kherson and on the coast generally? Does it make other Russian naval vessels more vulnerable to air strikes?
Major blow - and embarrassment - for the Russian Navy id have thought. Losing the flag ship of their Black Sea Fleet has got to hurt.

I’m no expert but I’d imagine it’s loss makes keeping odessa more likely. And keeping ukraine with a coast line and major sea port is a HUGE difference for the countries future in terms of trade and prosperity.

 

[Pickman's model]

I wonder if it's possible to game the Dardanelles thing by transferring a ship's home base to Simferopol or Sevastopol

 

[Artaxerxes]

Looking forward to this being lauded as another element in Putins 3D chess game