Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[David Clapson]

In case anyone has a need to stroke their chin, check out Chomsky in the New Statesman. On Putin:

“Why did he do it? There are two ways of looking at this question. One way, the fashionable way in the West, is to plumb the recesses of Putin’s twisted mind and try to determine what’s happening in his deep psyche. “The other way would be to look at the facts: for example, that in September 2021 the United States came out with a strong policy statement, calling for enhanced military cooperation with Ukraine, further sending of advanced military weapons, all part of the enhancement programme of Ukraine joining Nato.

Putin is as concerned with democracy as we are. If it’s possible to break out of the propaganda bubble for a few minutes, the US has a long record of undermining and destroying democracy. Do I have to run through it? Iran in 1953, Guatemala in 1954, Chile in 1973, on and on… But we are supposed to now honour and admire Washington’s enormous commitment to sovereignty and democracy.

“What about Nato expansion? There was an explicit, unambiguous promise by [US secretary of state] James Baker and president George HW Bush to Gorbachev that if he agreed to allow a unified Germany to rejoin Nato, the US would ensure that there would be no move one inch to the east. There’s a good deal of lying going on about this now.”

Chomsky, who observed in 1990 that “if the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every postwar American president would have been hanged”, spoke witheringly of Joe Biden. In Afghanistan, literally millions of people are facing imminent starvation. There’s food in the markets. But the United States, with the backing of Britain, has kept Afghanistan’s funds in New York banks and will not release them.”

Noam Chomsky: “We’re approaching the most dangerous point in human history”

The US professor, now 93, on the climate catastrophe and the threat of nuclear war.

www.newstatesman.com

 

[_Russ_]

Well, Russian soldiers reported to have been killed in Ukraine aren't coming from Moscow.

Further to discussion up thread about young men from poor areas, ethnically non-Russian guys:

20% of officially confirmed losses come from 10 Russia's depressed regions (plus Dagestan). If we add numbers from semi-depressed regions - it will be roughly 80% of all losses reported by Russian official sources.

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More in this thread:

Not exactly a policy limited to 'the baddies'

British army recruitment report — CRIN

home.crin.org

 

[agricola]

He's already getting warmed up.

Spoiler

View attachment 318367

There were probably more Russian members of the SS than Finns, vastly more if you use the word “Soviet” instead of Russian. That’s without even acknowledging what Finland actually did during that war, ie: do nothing much outside of areas that were in Finland before the Winter War.

As an aside though I wish there would be more diplomatic manoeuvres with regard to those two joining NATO, not in terms of ultimatums (which will obviously never work) but to help make it clear to the rest of the world that it’s only the war / special operation that is causing this.

It might be more effective with the non-aligned parts of the world when long standing members of that club are clearly being forced into doing something that they’ve shown very little interest in before now, certainly more effective than Putler memes and endless posturing by hypocrites.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I guess one of the appeals of the NWBTCW position is that it can also let people off having to pick their way through stuff like that?

Also lets you off the hook for doing anything at all to actually support the people suffering. After all, if they were our sort of people they'd be doing class war instead of allowing themselves to get caught up in some inter-imperialist invasion. What they lack is not food or water or medical supplies, but a proper ideological commitment to 1970's Trotskyism.

 

[Pickman's model]

Also lets you off the hook for doing anything at all to actually support the people suffering. After all, if they were our sort of people they'd be doing class war instead of allowing themselves to get caught up in some inter-imperialist invasion. What they lack is not food or water or medical supplies, but a proper ideological commitment to 1970's Trotskyism.

might just be me but i've always associated nwbtcw more with anarchists than trots. anyone with an ideological commitment to the trotskyism of the 1970s or indeed any other decade isn't really someone i'd want backing me up. trotskyism is after all only stalinism out of power

 

[Wilf]

Putin is as concerned with democracy as we are.

Say what?

 

[Serge Forward]

For fuck sake, you weren't meant to 'like' this post

 

[Wilf]

For fuck sake, you weren't meant to 'like' this post

View attachment 318377

How about that one?

 

[Cid]

For fuck sake, you weren't meant to 'like' this post

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Just for reference like:

• 12,258

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Say what?

I read it that this is Chomsky using 'we' to refer to the entity called 'the US'. He clarifies in the words that follow it:

If it’s possible to break out of the propaganda bubble for a few minutes, the US has a long record of undermining and destroying democracy. Do I have to run through it? Iran in 1953, Guatemala in 1954, Chile in 1973, on and on…

Seems a fair point to me.

 

[A380]

Well, Russian soldiers reported to have been killed in Ukraine aren't coming from Moscow.

Further to discussion up thread about young men from poor areas, ethnically non-Russian guys:

20% of officially confirmed losses come from 10 Russia's depressed regions (plus Dagestan). If we add numbers from semi-depressed regions - it will be roughly 80% of all losses reported by Russian official sources.

View attachment 318374

More in this thread:

Good job we don’t have a similar recruitment profile in the UK…

 

[Wilf]

I read it that this is Chomsky using 'we' to refer to the entity called 'the US'. He clarifies in the words that follow it:



Seems a fair point to me.

Yeah, I got the equivalence he was trying to draw - and I'm not some defender of an abstract 'democracy'. It just seemed a stupid thing to say in the current circumstances. The sort of thing you'd get from the stwc. Better if he'd said Putin has stretched, deformed and scooped out the basics of democracy, every bit as much as some of the US client states.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah, I got the equivalence he was trying to draw - and I'm not some defender of an abstract 'democracy'. It just seemed a stupid thing to say in the current circumstances. The sort of thing you'd get from the stwc. Better if he'd said Putin has stretched, deformed and scooped out the basics of democracy, every bit as much as some of the US client states.

The point is stronger than that, though, especially given that the three examples he gave are of US-sponsored coups against democracies. We're still living with the long-term consequences of the coup against Mosaddegh.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Good job we don’t have a similar recruitment profile in the UK…

I were born in Blyth, but I were made in' Royal Navy.

 

[Wilf]

I were born in Blyth, but I were made in' Royal Navy.

I fucking hate that advert.

 

[DaveCinzano]

I fucking hate that advert.

Never been a fan of naval gazing I take it?

 

[Dogsauce]

Civilians in occupied Kherson reportedly still protesting against the Russian occupation. Brave.

 

[Wilf]

Never been a fan of naval gazing I take it?

No, no, I'm far too spartan.

Coat, etc.

 

[A380]

Civilians in occupied Kherson reportedly still protesting against the Russian occupation. Brave.

Bloody NATO patsys. Not proper Working Class heroes like STW Oxford…

 

[elbows]

Yeah, I got the equivalence he was trying to draw - and I'm not some defender of an abstract 'democracy'. It just seemed a stupid thing to say in the current circumstances. The sort of thing you'd get from the stwc. Better if he'd said Putin has stretched, deformed and scooped out the basics of democracy, every bit as much as some of the US client states.

Chomskys themes and areas of emphasis dont really change, and nobody should look to him for refreshing new angles at this stage of his life. He is interested in pointing out 'our' bullshit, propaganda and use of language to serve particular aims, with historical examples of the phenomenon in action. And what role those positions have in creating the conditions for these sorts of conflicts. Even if he decided to point out some of Russias bullshit in detail, it would only be in order to set the stage to then go on about what interest the west really has in things like genuine democracy, and how we can study the obvious gap between what western leaders say and what they actually do, their true priorities, the dominant mindsets involved.

Those are important things to understand and I usually conclude that 'analysis' which skips over these inconvenient realities is laughable, dangerous, part of the underlying problem, part of what dooms us to never make the progress we'd like to see as a species. However it is also rather understandable that focussing primarily on these themes at a time when a different side is committing acts of terrible horror against people is not a great look. Many of the double standards he points out are very uncomfortable to people, and a war like this one gives people extra reasons to focus their thoughts in a rather different direction.

Ideally what would happen is that we could incorporate those themes into a much broader discussion at all times without hesitation, but also without coming across as any sort of apologist for the current horrors. But thats easier said than done, the mindsets he picks at are dominant, and almost every conflict ultimately reinforces such mindsets. The opportunities to fix that stuff are greater when a fresh conflict is not currently taking place. But even then its hard because peoples sense of whats really in our best interests is all fucked up by the dominant interests of the powerful, and how that leaks into how we all come to see the world, individuals, individual countries and blocks, the past, the present and the future. And even positions which meet the test of being demonstrably true and right can still end up resembling something that seems too stale and narrow to offer a real way out. Chomsky first made his key points many decades ago, and yet we remain as trapped as ever, with the ever increasing disadvantage of everyone being able to see how long we have failed to escape for. Long shadows of failed revolutions, failed opposition, failed movements, failed ideologies, the prison of the atomic age, and a lack of fresh sources of hope that appear in any way convincing.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It would have been better if Chomsky had been clearer in his condemnation of Putin. He may have been provoked but that doesn't reduce his agency or culpability in choosing to start a campaign of death and destruction.

However, I think people often have difficulty keeping in mind the scale of the culpability and hypocrisy of the likes of the US, or the UK for that matter. If a US president rails against Iran, they do so without acknowledging their own country's key and despicable role in creating modern-day Iran. Rinse and repeat for dozens of other situations, including Putin's Russia.

It would be good to think that something like this current war might lead to a reappraisal of the behaviour of many of those currently shouting loudest about Russian war crimes. Shit, we really need to change our ways, don't we. But it won't.

 

[two sheds]

He has been fairly clear.

In his interview with Noam Chomsky in Truthout dated March 1st , C.J. Polychroniou asks, with reference to Article 2(4) of the UN Charter, which prohibits the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity of another state, “Can you comment on Putin’s legal justifications for the invasion of Ukraine and on the status of international law in the post-Cold War era?” Chomsky says, “There is nothing to say about Putin’s attempt to offer legal justification for his aggression. Its merit is zero.. Chomsky ranks the Russian invasion of Ukraine as “a major war crime, ranking alongside the U.S. invasion of Iraq and the Hitler-Stalin invasion of Poland in September 1939.”

Ukraine: Chomsky’s view 2

1901 Political Cartoon In his interview with Noam Chomsky in Truthout dated March 1st , C.J. Polychroniou asks, with reference to Article 2(4) of the UN Charter, which prohibits the threat or use o…

koboiproject.com

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Fair dos. Chomsky is no Putin stooge.

 

[two sheds]

As you say though he mainly talks about the US's culpability.

 

[Pickman's model]

As you say though he mainly talks about the US's culpability.

And it's fair enough. After all, think global but act local etc. His big thing is the critique of us power so it'd be a surprise if he didn't have something to say about it.

 

[elbows]

Its certainly more appropriate to read those comments in the full contect of the Truthout article rather than the few snippets that blog post covers directly.

I note that it was incorrect of me to say he's had no new angles for decades, since he has clearly incorporated climate change into the current version of his stance. But all the usual themes are there, and climate change is mostly just used to bring a sense of fresh urgency to proceedings, and to frame things alongside a well discussed modern threat.

I suppose my point about such angles being even harder to get into properly during a conflict is on display, since the full interview features him discussing the need for peace via giving Putin some of what he wants, with a grimace. I doubt that him acknowledging the grimace that such a conclusion to the war would elcit is sufficient for people to accept that option without making the usual complaints about Chomsky and this version of 'the left'.

 

[two sheds]

And it's fair enough. After all, think global but act local etc. His big thing is the critique of us power so it'd be a surprise if he didn't have something to say about it.

And as I recall he's said it's easy to see the hypocrisy of your enemies because the press go on about them all the time. It however glosses over the hypocrisy of our own position.

 

[Dystopiary]

Civilians in occupied Kherson reportedly still protesting against the Russian occupation. Brave.

"Age-restricted adult content." Can't see it without signing in. Will try and have a look later.

 

[Raheem]

"Age-restricted adult content." Can't see it without signing in. Will try and have a look later.

Think the Kremlin must have let them know the video contained the word "fuking", as in "fuke off, you fuking fuker".

 

[Diamond]

Reports lighting up all over the shop that a Russian missile cruiser has been hit by 2 Neptune anti-ship missiles and is sinking somewhere in the Black Sea, maybe sunk already.