Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[dilute micro]

Twitter chat seems to indicate a huge loss of life on the Moskva and that she has sunk, that there may have been around one hour between the first distress signals and her sinking. A Turkish Civilian ship rescued some 60+ crew, but that's (for the moment) it.

Apparently both Turkey and Romania are saying she has sunk.

Crew of about 550.

First reports, unlikely to be, or much like, the full story, but catastrophic if true.

It's probably true then. I feel bad for anybody to die like that. It's always horrible.
I'll add what we were taught about Russian ship construction. They have a design doctrine of being the attacker. They build their ships as vehicles for weapons and not for taking a punch and fighting on or even remaining seaworthy. There's a number of things involved with design - doors, hatches and valves that can be closed and extra missile killing walls that make the missile explode before traveling deeper into the ship. I don't know anything about their damage control protocols as in what the crew do if they get hit.

 

[kebabking]

dilute micro if the standard of training/retention/experience in the RFN is anything like the standards in the Russian Army- as well as equipment and maintainance standards - then this stuff doesn't surprise me.

They treat their people like shit in peacetime, so I suppose why should they do otherwise in wartime?

 

[dilute micro]

dilute micro if the standard of training/retention/experience in the RFN is anything like the standards in the Russian Army- as well as equipment and maintainance standards - then this stuff doesn't surprise me.

They treat their people like shit in peacetime, so I suppose why should they do otherwise in wartime?

It's hard to imaging a ship like that which is bristling with weapons from end to end gets hit and sunk so easily.

 

[Dogsauce]

Apparently it isn’t sunk, Russia is claiming that the fire has been extinguished by sailors and it’s currently being towed back to Sebastopol. Guess we will see pictures soon enough.

 

[existentialist]

It's hard to imaging a ship like that which is bristling with weapons from end to end gets hit and sunk so easily.

TBF, that's been the fate of capital ships - and others - throughout history. The US lost a lot of its big ships in the Pacific, including two aircraft carriers in one engagement. HMS Sheffield, albeit a much smaller ship, was blindsided by an Exocet strike, and we all discovered that even metal ships burn. Admittedly, that was sort of Sheffield's job, to stop missiles getting through to the even bigger ships they were there to screen, but even so...

And, of course, warships are going to have lots of explosives (and carriers lots of aero fuel), which, if that goes up, means the ship is pretty much toast.

The other thing which seems to make a huge difference, and certainly did in WWII, is damage control. A well trained and motivated crew who know what they are doing can reduce dramatically the effects of bombing/missile attacks, and ultimately stand a chance of preventing magazines going up - there's not much to suggest that Russia is nearly so on top of such things, so even a preventable loss may turn out to be inevitable in such situations.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Unless they were waiting on the Post Office to deliver the missiles.

Given the damage, more likely to have been Hermes

 

[kebabking]

It's hard to imaging a ship like that which is bristling with weapons from end to end gets hit and sunk so easily.

Actually, I think it is - look at the RuA: Artillery, tube and rocket, coming out of its arse, but shit tyres, decayed seals, jamming kit that doesn't work, poorly trained troops without NVG or maps, a tooled up air force with appalling serviceability rates and guided Vs dumb munitions rates that don't match what we had in 1991.

All fur coat and no knickers - looks imposing rolling through Red Square, but it's a fucking death trap.

 

[Supine]

Given the damage, more likely to have been Hermes

If it was Hermes none of us would be safe.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Re: russian claims that 1000 UA marines have surrendered in maripoul. Is there any verification for this? You'd have thought the Russian would have released a few photos if it were true?

 

[Roadkill]

.

 

[existentialist]

Re: russian claims that 1000 UA marines have surrendered in maripoul. Is there any verification for this? You'd have thought the Russian would have released a few photos if it were true?

I think we can safely take it with the same quantity of salt that has turned out to be an appropriate level of seasoning for most of Russia's claims so far...

 

[Chz]

The 'ammunition fire' thing might be significant. If a ship's magazines go she's dead - HMS Hood, four times the size of Moskva, sank in three minutes with the loss of all but three of her 1400 crew when her aft magazine brewed up after being hit by a torpedo.

Ships: a bit like being in prison, with the added possibility of drowning.

Your overall point is correct, but I think you either mean HMS Barham from a torpedo, or HMS Hood from a 15" shell from the Bismarck. They both went up in minutes due to magazine explosions.

 

[elbows]

In regards Kyiv not having been attacked from the air recently:

Russian investigators say that Ukraine carried out air strikes on a residential area in Russia earlier today.

Officials say two low-flying military helicopters equipped with heavy arms attacked the town of Klimovo, injuring seven people including a child and damaging six houses.

Reports of the attack – which has not been independently verified – came after Moscow announced it would bomb targets in Kyiv and other parts of Ukraine if Ukrainian forces continued to attack its territory.

Thats from 14:28 on the BBC live updates page https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-61101906

I havent managed to get a full picture of how safe Kyiv has been from bombing recently, though when I had a brief attempt at doing this the other day I got the impression that maybe it might not have been attacked since the end of March.

 

[dilute micro]

I would have thunk other ships would have been helping protect the flagship or that it would have been far away from danger. Maybe they really did feel like Ukraine couldn't hit them with anything. So is another admiral killed now? Craziest stuff. Didn't hear anything about anti-ship capabilities and then surprise. I'm sure Ukraine does need more missiles but it's interesting how public Zelensky has been about it. Didn't Norway promise anti-ship missiles? Could this have been a long plan to take out this very ship and not waste them on any other ship?

 

[cupid_stunt]

Didn't Norway promise anti-ship missiles?

I don't know about Norway, but the UK has.

 

[The39thStep]

New York Times now naming and shaming Ukrainian 'draft dodgers

Welcome to nginx!

 

[Yossarian]

New York Times now naming and shaming Ukrainian 'draft dodgers

Welcome to nginx!

Were any of the dozen people interviewed named without their consent?

"I don’t think I can be a good soldier right now in this war,” said a Ukrainian computer programmer named Volodymyr, who left shortly after the war began and did not want to disclose his last name, fearing repercussions for avoiding military service.

“Look at me,” Volodymyr said, as he sat in a pub in Warsaw drinking a beer. “I wear glasses. I am 46. I don’t look like a classic fighter, some Rambo who can fight Russian troops.”

 

[Mr Moose]

New York Times now naming and shaming Ukrainian 'draft dodgers

Welcome to nginx!

While the term ‘draft dodgers’ isn’t pleasant, the article isn’t shaming. I don’t get that it’s telling us what to think about people in a very difficult situation. It’s describing yet more misery and hatred caused by the invasion.

 

[agricola]

New York Times now naming and shaming Ukrainian 'draft dodgers

Welcome to nginx!

If that society survives this, even if those people aren’t criminalised the division between those who fought and those who didn’t is going to be massive.

 

[Serge Forward]

Has it been sunk though? The reports I’m seeing via BBC and Sky say ”in flames“ and “damaged“. Maybe you’ve seen something more up to date?

And has the Sun done a "Gotcha!" front page yet?

 

[existentialist]

And has the Sun done a "Gotcha!" front page yet?

I imagine they'll go for something different this time, probably involving some tortured pun around "Putin", "Moskva", or "Russkies"

I expect they have their best people working on it even as we write...

ETA: no, I was wrong. They went with "GOTCHA!". Staying classy...

 

[keybored]

Russia has two more the same size but won't be able to get them through the Dardonelles. A US commentator on Twitter saying the rescued crew are being used to replace infantry at Mariupol. This sounds very unlikely to me, the skills involved are surely not that trasferrable.

Aren't they? I reckon even I could get drunk and loot a washing machine.

 

[og ogilby]

Aren't they? I reckon even I could get drunk and loot a washing machine.

They don't call it getting drunk. It's a special intoxicating operation.

 

[tim]

The Russian military has a cultural history of this kind of thing. They simply don't see casualties as casualties, they see them as heroic martyrs for the motherland, and you just can't have too many of them....

So just like the British, French and US military, then.

My great-grandfather was heroically martyred for King and Country in the Great War. If I want to find out exactly how, all I have to do is subscribe to a website that has the rights to his military records. I wonder if in his death throws, he reflected upon how the state might find a way of monetising his miserable demise.

 

[Raheem]

They don't call it getting drunk. It's a special intoxicating operation.

Usually accompanied by acquisitive field exercises.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Usually accompanied by acquisitive field exercises.

OPERATION CASH CONVERTERS

 

[Nylock]

Finland and Sweden joining NATO probably deserves its own thread at this point, as it’s seeming like a nailed on certainty at this point.

Not nailed on yet. For the US to agree to accession, the proposal needs to pass the US senate by a 2/3rds margin. With the very real possibility of interference from the pro-putin caucus of the GOP, the US may yet fuck it up.

 

[elbows]

Apparently it isn’t sunk, Russia is claiming that the fire has been extinguished by sailors and it’s currently being towed back to Sebastopol. Guess we will see pictures soon enough.

Last I heard was:

The United States believes the Moskva is still on fire and is heading to Sevastopol in Crimea, a Ukrainian peninsula annexed by Russia in 2014.

"Our assessment is that she still appears to be battling a fire on board," a senior US defence official told the Reuters news agency.

From Russian warship Moskva: What do we know?

 

[kebabking]

Not nailed on yet. For the US to agree to accession, the proposal needs to pass the US senate by a 2/3rds margin. With the very real possibility of interference from the pro-putin caucus of the GOP, the US may yet fuck it up.

I did wonder about Hungary, or possibly even France...

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Not nailed on yet. For the US to agree to accession, the proposal needs to pass the US senate by a 2/3rds margin. With the very real possibility of interference from the pro-putin caucus of the GOP, the US may yet fuck it up.

And Hungary need to Ok it.