Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Pickman's model]

People from Ukraine with no military training who aren't likely to be any use in a war, vs people from everywhere else who do have military training but aren't volunteering to fight in Ukraine.

I know who I think the cowards are.

Yeh all the people who've entirely understandably decided it's not their fight. You calling eg kebabking or the former soldiers here cowards? Don't know why you've this need to find cowards, it doesn't advance the discussion or understanding of the conflict one iota

 

[8ball]

Draft dodger is an awful term though

Standard othering of someone breaking a social expectation. We use far worse on here all the time.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Yeh all the people who've entirely understandably decided it's not their fight. You calling eg kebabking or the former soldiers here cowards? Don't know why you've this need to find cowards, it doesn't advance the discussion or understanding of the conflict one iota

Second thoughts I'm just gonna leave this one.

 

[frogwoman]

I read somewhere that Ukraine's army is actually turning people away as it has more people signing up than they know what to do with. There's going to be loads of people who are unfit for military service because of ill health, mental health problems etc and would probably be a liability on the battlefield

 

[Pickman's model]

Second thoughts I'm just gonna leave this one.

Probably for the best

 

[dilute micro]

Exactly. No pictures either way. No satellite imagery. Nothing.

That to me says something. I'm not sure what, but something.

I'm sure Putin knows if he lost a ship or not. I think it's going to be out of commission for a long time. If Putin's generals are lying to him about the ground forces they probably think they can cover up any losses. They can't hide the loss of a flagship. So there's no use in the Pentagon trying to mislead Putin.

 

[dilute micro]

I read somewhere that Ukraine's army is actually turning people away as it has more people signing up than they know what to do with. There's going to be loads of people who are unfit for military service because of ill health, mental health problems etc and would probably be a liability on the battlefield

Can you imagine all the nutjobs that show up to be given a gun?

 

[Mr Moose]

Perhaps the headline 'Ukraine's Draft Dodgers Face Guilt , Shame and Reproach' is worse than the content ?

​

Yes. Journos often don’t get to write their own headlines. I felt sympathy with those who scarpered after reading it, not that I didn’t before. Unenviable choices.

 

[The39thStep]

Probably for the best

White feather club

 

[xenon]

They've also had people turning up to fight who have then realised it's actually a bit dangerous and they want to go home.

We've gone to a war zone by mistake...

 

[frogwoman]

Rocking up to overseas wars in general isn't always a great idea

 

[JimW]

Rocking up to overseas wars in general isn't always a great idea

Laurie Lee just happened to be in Spain when that one kicked off but he did get a couple of successful books out of it.

 

[8ball]

They've also had people turning up to fight who have then realised it's actually a bit dangerous and they want to go home.

We've gone to a war zone by mistake...

Gotta say, if I was going along to something like that I'd be expecting a generous helping of starvation, horror, disease and potential dismemberment, torture and death.

 

[Idris2002]

Can you imagine all the nutjobs that show up to be given a gun?

"You'll like Nutjob. He's a real nut job."

 

[Dogsauce]

I’d imagine there’s fuck loads of jobs that could be done away from the front line for those not ‘fighting fit’ such as organising supplies, fixing up/cleaning up captured or damaged vehicles, helping refugees and those made homeless, rebuilding, building decoys, scrutinising satellite or audio intelligence, medical assistance etc. Some of this stuff could be done by foreign militaries without appearing as a hostile act towards Russia or putting people in the line of fire, would be a good bit of solidarity and would make people feel safer and like other countries have their back.

 

[existentialist]

No I wouldn't. Putin's macho ego, I think it's safe to say, is more affronted by successful female leaders than successful male ones. I'd have thought that was too obvious to need explaining.

It might be possible that you're projecting a few of your own cognitive biases, there...

 

[Pickman's model]

Gotta say, if I was going along to something like that I'd be expecting a generous helping of starvation, horror, disease and potential dismemberment, torture and death.

Not to mention PTSD and a failure of services to provide adequate mental health support for the lucky survivors

 

[Spymaster]

Second thoughts I'm just gonna leave this one.

I don't blame you, you were talking nonsense.

Why on earth would non-Ukrainian ex-military people be cowards for not fighting for Ukraine?

 

[Nylock]

I would have thought any pro-Putin factions within US politics will have shrunk as a result of the war to the point where they don’t have much power any more. Not enough to scupper this at least.

Two measures on sanctions on Russia and supplying weapons to Ukraine passed the Senate 100-0 last week, I don't think there'll be many Republicans willing to break ranks on NATO accession.

There are increasing numbers of politicians in the Trumpist wing of the GOP who are as leery of US NATO membership and expansion as their dear leader is... I'm not saying that it's a nailed-on certainty that republican shenanigans will fuck it up for Finalnd and Sweden, but rather that the current woefully partisan state of US politics makes it a greater possiblity than in previous accession votes that they may tank the proposal. Approving pork barrel friendly increases in weapon supplies to Ukraine is not exactly the same as voting to add two extra members to NATO with the associated potential geopolitical headaches that it may cause to a faction of US politics that is increasingly disinclined to give a fuck about anything outside of their narrow culture war focussed worldview.

In 2003, the US senate voted 96-0 to approve the expansion of NATO to include Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, and Slovenia. Whereas In 1998 the Senate backed the memberships of the Czech Republic, Hungary, and Poland by a less resounding 80-19 vote. Both votes occurred in a senate that was a lot more 'bipartisan' and less hopelessly divided than the current one is. Although it's more likely that Hungary or France may veto the move, there are plenty of GOP figures that may through narrow partisan interest, stick the boot in -running the spectrum from 'true believer' cunty MAGA cultists like Hawley and Cotton, through to spineless supine bloviators like Graham and Cruz. Again, I'm not saying it's likely, but there is a small possibility that the bubble may be burst from an unexpected direction -especially as this is a midterm year with the senate and house up for grabs and a ton of insufferable trumpists on the ticket all across the USA running for everything from dog catcher to state governor...

 

[xenon]

Rocking up to overseas wars in general isn't always a great idea

It's not on my bucket list TBH...

The motivation to go and help defend Ukraine though is obviously understandable. I respect those who've gone out there and have something useful to offer, be it fighting or distributing aid. But generally as far as mercs or volunteer soldiers, depends if I agree with the cause.

 

[Pickman's model]

Frankly there's a fuckton of work needing doing here, it's not like people need to go to Ukraine to do some good.

 

[David Clapson]

It might be possible that you're projecting a few of your own cognitive biases, there...

Perhaps if you add this putin misogyny - Google Search to this Vladimir Putin: 20 years in power - in pictures and factor in Putin's age you might have a clue. Or you could decide not to have a clue and just shoot the messenger. Or you could shove it up your arse.

 

[frogwoman]

There's reports of Americans turning up and complaining they can't bring their pets to a war lol. In general I think what Ukraine probably doesn't need is a bunch of ideologically motivated, tooled up yet clueless westerners lol

 

[Pickman's model]

Perhaps if you add this putin misogyny - Google Search to this Vladimir Putin: 20 years in power - in pictures and factor in Putin's age you might have a clue. Or you could decide not to have a clue and just shoot the messenger. Or you could shove it up your arse.

Factor in Putin's age? You ageist twat

Now, about that outmanoeuvring you claimed...

 

[8ball]

It's not on my bucket list TBH...

Best list for it, really.

 

[NoXion]

There's reports of Americans turning up and complaining they can't bring their pets to a war lol. In general I think what Ukraine probably doesn't need is a bunch of ideologically motivated, tooled up yet clueless westerners lol

Who the fuck brings their pets to a war zone? Owners of armoured attack grizzlies?

 

[JimW]

Who the fuck brings their pets to a war zone? Owners of armoured attack grizzlies?

St Bernard with a barrel of brandy and your brown trousers in a saddle bag.

 

[David Clapson]

Factor in Putin's age? You ageist twat

Oh, the point scorer rears his ugly head again. You're so out of your depth that I'm almost sorry for you.

 

[xenon]

There's reports of Americans turning up and complaining they can't bring their pets to a war lol. In general I think what Ukraine probably doesn't need is a bunch of ideologically motivated, tooled up yet clueless westerners lol

What d'ya mean there's no room for my emotional support muntjac in the truck. What the hell kinda place is this.

 

[David Clapson]

Factor in Putin's age? You ageist twat

Now, about that outmanoeuvring you claimed...

So you briefly lost control of your bile and tried to cover with a rapid edit, and you even got a like from 8ball. Impressive. But your new argument rests on Putin's plan NOT being to prevent Nato's eastward expansion. Which actually IS his plan. Really, you'd have done better to cut your previous post down to a full stop.